Image by New Media Days via Flickr
How do you discredit someone who undermines systems of power? In the old days, the CIA would just assassinate and murder them (they’ve tried 638 times to get Castro), even topple entire governments if need be. However, since the world is now much more aware of the dirty tricks or “Black Ops” that they use, powerful interests have had to find other ways of “subtly” smearing them in the public eye. Calling them a rapist is one way of doing it which is what has happened today to Julian Assange founder of WikiLeaks.
Firstly, let’s get the rather flimsy circumstances straight. Assange is accused of prancing around the Greater Stockholm area like a crazed animal between 15th to 17th August. According to center-right wing newspaper Expressen, last weekend, he sexually harassed a woman in Södermalm, Stockholm. Two or three days later, he traveled 20km to the quiet nearby town of Enköping where he supposedly raped another woman. The two women – aged “between 20-30″ according to Expressen and by an astonishing coincidence, friends also – decided a week later to go to a police station and said that “Julian Assange has raped and harassed us” and that they “didn’t want to press charges but just wanted some advice”. The first Assange knew of these allegations were when he saw the front on Expressen this morning. He denied it in an e-mail to Dagens Nyheter newspaper saying:
Why these accusations are coming at this point in time is an interesting question. I haven’t been contacted by the police. The allegations are false.
Assange is now understood to be making his way to a police station.
Secondly, let’s get the context clear to recent events in Assange’s life. The Pirate Party – a political party in Sweden dedicated to freedom of information – have this week agreed to host WikiLeaks documents on their servers since the organization is banned from publishing in many other countries. Assange has been in Sweden to arrange this deal and also agreed to write a column for centre-left Swedish newspaper Aftonbladet (the main rival to Expressen who “broke” this “story”), the first of which was due to be released today. Incidentally, Aftonbladet have decided to postpone publication in the light of the rape allegations.
Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, let’s get the wider context clear. Assange and his team at WikiLeaks are on the verge of publishing 15,000 more Afghan war documents which the US Government and Pentagon are desperate to suppress. Whether orchestrating a smear campaign against Assange would even stop that, I very much doubt it. And even if Assange were a rapist – or even worshiped Beelzebub and Hitler – it takes nothing away from the incriminating Collateral Murder video and Afghan war documents that WikiLeaks have already released.
Whether this is an orchestrated smear campaign, just two very silly girls, or a genuine case of rape and harassment, the fact is that WikiLeaks is bigger than Assange as he I’m sure would be the first to admit. It, and other projects like it, cannot be stopped. It’s like Chavez in Venezuela – even if the CIA assassinated him now, it’s too late to stop the popular revolution he’s unleashed and the same goes for the spirit of exposing abuses of power that WikiLeaks has ushered in since the corporate mainstream media are utterly impotent and unwilling to do so.
Unfortunately for the powerful, dirty tricks, black-ops and even assassinations simply can’t stop the tide of change and revolutions once they’ve begun in an inter-connected globalized age.
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Mert Salur, Nicholas Mead. Nicholas Mead said: New Blog Post: How to smear a hero: http://bit.ly/9CjotE [...]
18:15 update: The arrest warrant for Assange has already dropped before the police even contacted him. The Swedish public prosecutor says:
“I don’t think there is reason to suspect that he has committed rape.”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11049316
However, Swedish newspaper Aftonbladet reports that “although he is no longer under suspicion of rape, the WikiLeaks founder is still under suspicion of molestation”.
One of the women – a 30 year old who claims she was molested (but not raped) – has now spoken to Aftonbladet newspaper, stands by the accusation. She says that she somehow “came into contact with the other woman” who was raped but doesn’t elaborate on how this mysterious contact occurred.
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article7652935.ab
Until more is known about the two women, and until Assange himself either publicly confirms or denies contact with them, it’s very hard to say what’s going on but at least the accusation of rape is now off the agenda.
19.30 Update: It’s thought (unofficially at the moment) that this is one of the women that talked with Aftonbladet and alleges Assange molested her – 30 year old Anna Ardin, a Christian Democrat and Research Assistant at Uppsala University:
http://www.ibf.uu.se/PERSON/anna/anna.html
A separate organization she works for invited Assange to make a speech during the past week and from her tweets it’s pretty clear she was very excited about his arrival, especially around the time the offense is thought to have taken place. It’s apparent that Ardin has deleted some tweets relating to Juilan Assange since the story broke. On a cache of her blog on August 8th a tweet reads: “Julian vill gå på kräftskiva, nån som har ett par lediga platser ikväll el imorgon?” Translation: “Julian is going to a crayfish party. Does anyone have any spare places available for this evening or tomorrow?”. The cache is here:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:MBozKbQ4fawJ:annaardin.wordpress.com/2010/08/08/ett-par-sanningens-ord-fran-einar-heckscher/+annaardin.wordpress.com&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=firefox-a
But as you’ll see from her current Twitter page, the tweet has been deleted:
http://twitter.com/annaardin
She has locked access to her WordPress blog probably due to the amount of abuse she has been receiving from people defending Assange but her old blog is still online. The blog is entirely in Swedish except for the banner-line at the top which is in English and reads: “My feminist reflections and comments on animal rights, Swedish politics and Cuba from a political scientist, Christian left and long distance runner will from now on be published at http://annaardin.wordpress.com“
http://annaardin.blogspot.com/
13:30 Aug 22 Update: The blog has now been blocked.
She has also set up a Facebook “tribute” page to herself called “Anna Ardin är coolast i stan (Translation: Anna Ardin is the coolest in town/Anna Ardin as role model”). The profile description reads: “Ardin is a political scientist, communicator, entrepreneur and freelance writer with profound knowledge in faith & politics, equality, feminism and Latin America. She specializes in combining politics with humor and wits. We likes.”
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Anna-Ardin-ar-coolast-i-stan-Anna-Ardin-as-role-model/110597885621376?ref=search
The Pentagon’s open hostility towards WikiLeaks are well known and it’s quite possible this is a smear plot but it if is, it’s been pretty badly executed so far. It could just be a case of a woman who slept with him, possibly got her hopes up and then had sour grapes after she found out he’d also slept with another woman. It’s thought that the women either worked together or both had connections with the same organization that Assange did the speech for. At least one of the women, on realizing that Assange had slept with them both, may have felt rather upset that he’d “played around”. In their anger and hurt, it’s possible they may have taken the decision – or maybe even been coerced by outside forces – to smear him in revenge or alternatively, one of them convinced the other to make a joint accusation in return for something. It’s understood that the other woman involved is somewhat younger than Anna Ardin. It’s hard to say anything more until and if Assange speaks publicly on exactly what happened on the nights in question. In the end, it may all come down to a question of what exactly the victims consider “molestation” and what exactly the law defines it as.
A good article, I must say. But, with all my respect for your opinions on Venezuela’s Mr Hugo Chavez and the “revolution” he’s supposedly “unleashed”, I don’t think comparing him with WikiLeaks’ Mr. Julian Assange makes the latter any favor.
Thanks but I’m not drawing a direct comparison between the two men. I’m drawing a parallel between the spirit of change they’ve both started.
Note that the person mentioned has in fact been listed by Swedish Pirate Party as JAs ‘press secretary’ …
http://www.mashtechworld.com/2010/08/18/swedish-pirate-get-together-to-host-new-wikileaks-servers-piratpa/
admin:
I don’t really have a strong opinion on Assange or WikiLeaks, I’d just say I think its hypocritical for his supporters to hunt down the names of these women only to harass them.
Many critics charge that because WikiLeaks doesn’t name their sources, the site could potentially be used for defamation by publishing false documents. And, yet, despite this possibility, WikiLeaks defends their practice, so to avoid their sources getting the type of treatment Anna Ardin is getting.
What, is confidentiality of sources only important when it’s on “your side”? I don’t get it.
Oh ok, so it isnt Anna Ardin
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@admin, Thanks for the link. Interestingly, The Pirate Party have now mysteriously removed her name as Press Secretary from their website.
http://www.piratpartiet.se/feed-item/swedish-pirate-party-host-new-wikileaks-servers?sms_ss=digg
@Redfish, I don’t think the link proves anything either way except that she had closer contact with him during his stay than is already known. What has happened however is that within the past 12 hours, the link to her old blog has been blocked to public access:
http://annaardin.blogspot.com/
The blog was entirely in Swedish except for the banner-line at the top which was in English and read:
“My feminist reflections and comments on animal rights, Swedish politics and Cuba from a political scientist, Christian left and long distance runner will from now on be published at http://annaardin.wordpress.com“
Incidentally, one of her posts was about rape entitled: “Våldtäkt en del av mäns makt – Translation: “Rape, a part of mans power”. A cache of the post can be found here:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:P33X_q4mvSUJ:annaardin.blogspot.com/2009/03/valdtakt-en-del-av-mans-makt.html+V%C3%A5ldt%C3%A4kt+en+del+av+m%C3%A4ns+makt&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=firefox-a
In a part where she talks about what she considers the lenient treatment of rapists in Brazil she highlights in bold:
11.25 Aug 22 Update. Assange has now given his first interview with Aftonbladet on the matter.
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article7654862.ab
In it he says:
“What I can say is that I have never, either in Sweden or in any other country, had sex with someone that they haven’t consented to.”
Some excerpts from the interview:
Have you had sex with them?
“Their identities have been made anonymous so even I have no idea who they are.”
Have you had sex at all during your stay in Sweden?
This is something I am entitled to keep private and also to preserve the privacy of the women.
But is it not best in this situation to be as transparent as possible?
Yes, but I do not want to drag people’s private lives through the dirt without having the whole situation clear to me. Why have they turned to the police? What lies behind their actions? What I can say is that I have never, either in Sweden or in any other country, had sex with someone that they haven’t consented to.
Other excerpts:
What do you think of the police and the prosecutor’s conduct?
Nobody has asked me about my version of the story.
What is your side of the story?
I want to know more about what I am accused of before I say anything about it.
You are suspected of molestation.
Nothing I have done applies to this allegation.
How would you sum up this Saturday?
Neither the prosecutors or police have been in contact with me. However, I’m glad that the Swedish authorities quickly checked the women’s stories and struck-down allegations of rape. Apparently it is because a prosecutor with a higher rank took over the investigation and changed the decision to arrest me. The first prosecutor should be criticized however as well as the media who have blindly reported on the allegations.
INTERVIEW ENDS
I think from this it can be deduced that Assange did have sex with at least one or both of the women. Whether they were manipulated before or after the event by outside forces isn’t clear but in view of the open hostility towards him by the Pentagon, and the CIA’s track record of smearing or assassinating “state enemies”, it is a very strong likelihood. However, if Swedish prosecutors weren’t in on the plot, it may be that they foiled it by striking down the allegations before the plot had chance to get going properly. In other words, it was a very botched CIA plot (not impossible since in 638 attempts to kill Castro, they’ve failed everytime!) or the women executed the plan in such an unconvincing manner that the prosecutor simply didn’t bite.
If it was a plot, then it seems likely that the women were contacted after the event. It’s hard to imagine that the CIA infiltrated an Uppsala University Researcher such as Anna Ardin (a self confessed feminist from the Christian Left according to her old blog) before the event because there was no guarantee she would be able to seduce him and get him into bed. More likely, it’s that Assange’s movements were being tracked constantly by secret service agents (Assange says this has already happened with other WikiLeaks staff in a video interview at The Crossfire Club in London) and when they caught him having sex, smelled a chance to frame him and coerced the two women one way or the other. There was a one week time frame between first incident and the arrest warrant so there was plenty of time for coercion and to work on a plot.
If the allegations are genuine, then the question is what is “molestation”. Since its now clear police are satisfied both women consented to the sex from the beginning, it must pertain to something that happened during the sex. I’m not sure what Swedish law considers “molestation” during sex and have no desire to speculate about Assange’s sex life or sexual preference in bed but it’s possible that what’s considered “molestation” differs according to different people.
Finally, Assange is quite right to be angry at the original prosecutor for issuing an arrest warrant. A senior prosecutor apparently had “more evidence” (although it’s not clear what that evidence was) and overturned it immediately it seems so there was no need to even issue an arrest warrant or his name. He’s equally right to be angry with center-right tabloid Expressen and the world mass media for swallowing the story and printing his name all over their front pages. Expressen maybe smelled an opportunity for some major publicity and a circulation boost and cynically took it. However, the original prosecutor who issued the arrest has a lot to answer for.
14:20 Update: A call has been made by an independent Swedish legal group called RO to get the Parliamentary Ombudsman to investigate the original prosecutor Mary Häljebo Kjell Strand for issuing the original arrest warrant. RO says the way the arrest warrant was handled was “a disaster for the law” adding:
“The on-call prosecutor has not been objective, she has just listened to the notifier. She suspected Assange with the highest degree of suspicion without questioning him. If you were to lock up all people suspected of crimes the police wouldn’t have time to do anything else. There must be a factual basis for the prosecutor to decide whether to issue an arrest warrant. Particularly with regard to sexual offenses. This is not unique and I think it’s good that the problem comes to the surface.”
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article7655734.ab
It is thought that one of the women involved, Anna Ardin, specializes in women’s rights as part of her work. If so, she would have known the legal process intimately when it comes to reporting rape cases in Sweden and may also have been aware that on the Friday night when she made the accusation, the Chief Prosecutor would have been on holiday for the weekend. In her place, was Maria Häljebo Kjellstrand – a more inexperienced prosecutor who as we now know, rushed out an arrest warrant for rape for Assange.
It was known from the start that Ardin didn’t make an official allegation of rape at the police station. She merely “wanted some advice on what to do” perhaps knowing that by doing so, legally she couldn’t later be accused of making a false accusation or charged with wasting police time if the allegations turned out to be false. However, if she had an in-depth knowledge of the legal procedure when it comes to reporting rape in Sweden, she may have known that legally, the police had to record it as a rape incident and thus set the wheels in motion to capture the so called rapist.
In other words, it’s a legal loophole that makes it possible to make a false accusation with no fear of recriminations for wasting police time or making false accusations.
It should be noted that this is all still speculation at the moment however and people can only make up their minds by the evidence that has emerged so far.
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Nicholas Mead, Nicholas Mead. Nicholas Mead said: Legal group RO calls for investigation into the "weekend stand-in" prosecutor who rushed-out Assange arrest warrant: http://bit.ly/a2TnoH [...]
This is a very odd story. If the woman is Anna Ardin then it is not strange if you read her articles. She is very anti-Castro and work with groups that have close connections with CIA. She is also involved in Gaza and defends the use of veil by foreign women in Sweden at the same time that she started the first lesbian disco in Gotland.
She looks like a very unstable person easy to manipulate…
Best single-place follow-up of this creepy story I have found yet. Kudos!
“Sjustegsmodell for legal revenge” <-Anna's Blog
"I've been thinking about some revenge over the last few days and came across a very good side who inspired me to this seven-point revenge instruction in Swedish."
Google Translate:
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwebcache.googleusercontent.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dcache%3AKqxoRlB3Ub0J%3Aannaardin.wordpress.com%2F2010%2F01%2F19%2Fsjustegsmodell-for-laglig-hamnd%2F%2Bsjustegsmodell%2Bf%25C3%25B6r%2Blaglig%2Bh%25C3%25A4mnd%26cd%3D1%26hl%3Dsv%26ct%3Dclnk%26client%3Dsafari&sl=sv&tl=en
In Swedish:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:KqxoRlB3Ub0J:annaardin.wordpress.com/2010/01/19/sjustegsmodell-for-laglig-hamnd/+sjustegsmodell+f%C3%B6r+laglig+h%C3%A4mnd&cd=1&hl=sv&ct=clnk&client=safari
@Eric Larsson, Having read some more of her blog, I understand your concern. However, my concern has nothing to do with the what you say is her is speculate is her anti Castro activity, issues in Gaza or support for women wearing veils in Sweden (not sure about your close links with CIA claim either).
My main concern is the blog post provided by Popcorn (thanks for the tip) above that she wrote on 19 January 2010: 7 Steps To Legal Revenge about 7 steps how to take legal revenge and punish a cheating lover. It’s worth reproducing here in its entirety such could be the importance of it in getting to the bottom of this entire story. The original text for each step is in Swedish with the English translation in bold:
The cache of the translated article can be found here:
http://tinyurl.com/39tjtdx
Note that the article she refers to in the opening paragraph that inspired her is this eHow article, “How To Get Legal Revenge”:
http://www.ehow.com/how_2296915_get-legal-revenge.html
The most incriminating part in the case of Assange is surely Step 3:
It is looking increasingly likely the allegations against Assange are a case of a jilted lover rather than any grand plot. At least, that’s how it initially started. Do you think the CIA would really choose or infiltrate someone with such an incriminating post as this on her blog to try and frame him?
One possible scenario is that she was absolutely furious when she discovered that Assange – possibly perceived as a freedom fighting angel in her eyes who could do no wrong – had “cheated” on her with another woman. Mixed with what appears to be quite strong feminism beliefs and possible desire for revenge (as illustrated by the above blogpost) it’s possible that maybe she either coerced or somehow convinced the other woman to join her into reporting Assange to the police for “rape”. Alternatively, she may have decided to contact known enemies of Assange to see whether she could gain anything herself from framing him.
Again, this is still pure speculation and people will have to make their own minds up but increasing evidence mounting about Anna Ardin are quite incriminating so far.
The slightly concerning thing is that the Public Prosecutor is now being very cagey about giving any information about what exactly Assange is now charged with.
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article7656481.ab
The most suspicious part of all however is why on Earth was Assange’s name issued by the Public Prosecutor when the center-right Expressen newspaper called them? The Public Prosecutor is not supposed to issue any names to the public or Press simply if two people walk into a police station and make an accusation about someone. And how did Expressen get tipped-off in the first place that it might be worth ringing the Public Prosecutor on suspicion that warrant had been issued for Assange? A good discussion of this crucial issue is here:
http://amovingworld.blogspot.com/2010/08/how-was-leak-on-wikileaks-conducted.html
If this wasn’t a plot from the beginning, then it is possible that powerful US interests may have at some stage pounced on the Public Prosecutor to try and muddy the legal process and turn it to their advantage.
Good follow-ups and fast translations on this case here: http://www.skandinaviflorida.com/
@Nicholas – Thanks for the nice english translations & summaries of what is going on. It’s somewhat difficult for me to go slogging through the Swedish text with google translator.
@Popcorn – You’re welcome and thank you for the tip. You’ve provided possibly one of the most illuminating pieces of information yet to emerge about her.
“And how did Expressen get tipped-off in the first place that it might be worth ringing the Public Prosecutor on suspicion that warrant had been issued for Assange?” – Nicholas
I know some of the insinuation is that someone in the police force tipped off Expressen.
Other possibilities is that the two women were chatty about the subject and one of their friends (or friends of friends) tipped off the paper.
A 3rd likely possibility is that Anna, who not only works as a Press Secretary for the Brotherhood, & somehow got herself listed as a Press Secretary for Julian, has worked for GT/Expressen in the past tipped them off, as this is clearly news.
Here is one person referencing that she was worked for GT/Expressen in a forum post:
https://www.flashback.org/sp25004302
I wouldn’t accept just a forum post as fact, but I also independently ran across the information, I think on one of her blogs/profiles somewhere.
Sorry, I suck at Swedish to much to find the proof again, but I do know the documentation is out there.
It looks like her resume on ardin.se contains documentation that she had a temporary position as as stand-in-Chief in the GT.
“ett gediget cv med bland annat ett vikariat som vikarierande ledarskribent i GT.”
I just don’t know Swedish well enough to find her resume via google cache.
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Jan Johannesson, Jan Johannesson, Timothy Herkt, Timothy Herkt, Nicholas Mead and others. Nicholas Mead said: Blog update: Evidence mounts that Assange was the victim of a "jilted lover" rather than a plot: http://bit.ly/90JJZ8 #assange #wikileaks [...]
Here you go:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:72mg82_klJEJ:annaardin.wordpress.com/about/+anna+ardin+cv&cd=1&hl=sv&ct=clnk&gl=se
Here is Anna’s CV. I don’t see the direct reference to GT there, just work as a freelance writer, but I also can’t read Swedish.
Cache of CV:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=tXw&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fannaardin.wordpress.com%2Fabout%2F&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=
English Google Translation:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=sv&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwebcache.googleusercontent.com%2Fsearch%3Fhl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DtXw%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla%253Aen-US%253Aofficial%26q%3Dcache%253Ahttp%253A%252F%252Fannaardin.wordpress.com%252Fabout%252F%26aq%3Df%26aqi%3D%26aql%3D%26oq%3D%26gs_rfai%3D
@Popcorn, Thanks. That actually means that she is a “temporary stand-in Editor” for Gotlands Tidningen. Gotlands Tidningen is a small newspaper on the tiny Swedish holiday island of Gotland. However, many “conspiracy theorists” on the net have jumped on that and mistakenly thought GT refers to GT Expressen – a special section of Expressen newspaper (that originally “broke” the Assange “story”) that solely focuses on Gothenburg:
http://gt.expressen.se/
In fact, this is the paper she refers to:
http://www.helagotland.se/gt/
Incidentally, Ardin, along with three other girls, opened Gotland’s first lesbian nightclub in 2007 called “Klubb Feber”.
http://tinyurl.com/3y5joxz
Some might say this raises questions about what is her real sexuality although I’m not sure if it points evidence one way or the other.
@Maria, thanks for the CV. An English translation can be found here:
http://tinyurl.com/3ahgs3p
She’s certainly media savvy as she’s freelanced for several newspapers and major media in Sweden including state television channel SVT:
Her most recent job is listed as:
Which as is now known, is how she came into contact with Assange as he was a guest of the Swedish Christian Social Democrats in Sweden for the past week.
@Nicholas – Thanks for clarifying the “GT” situation for me. So at this point, she is just an occasional freelance writer.
@Popcorn, Yes that’s right.
Can anyone find the interview with the 20ish year old? I thought I recalled seeing it on aftonbladet.se along with the interview of the 30 year old. The meat of it was that they had consensual sex, but he went too far on Tuesday morning.
OK. It wasn’t an interview with the 20 year old. This was the article I was thinking off and it provides more information on what is supposed to have occurred with the 20 year old.
http://www.expressen.se/Nyheter/1.2105783/kvinnan-han-gick-for-langt
Popcorn: If you needed some kind of translation, she says they had voluntary sex one night, then he “Went too far” another night. She “Put up strict boundaries” which he “ignored”.
They went to the movies last saturday. In the evening they went their separate ways and at the party he went to that night he supposedly molested the other woman. They then met up again Monday and Tuesday is when she claimed he “went too far”.
Saw now that you already had the translation. Excuse me.
You are right on the spot. She is “the older woman 31 year” and as you can see from her CV a member of the swedish parlament for the Swedish Socialdemocratic Party.
The swedish official media (TV news) had NO comment today sunday but it is generaly known in Sweden that the Socialdemocratic Party has big influence on TV -News.
( more information on http://www.flashback.org and
http://aktivarum.wordpress.com/ )
Greetings from Gothenburg
Popcorn:
Girl20 is still a mystery, although a few interresting leads are out there. My guess is that her name will be revealed sometime tomorrow.
admin:
Impressive work will all this. You are almost totally up to date. Do you have swedish backgound?
ps. Maybe a small thing of teh matter, but apperently she felt the urge to reply a text of law to a guy that made clumsy attempts to approach her when she was practicing at the swedish embassy in Buenos Aires. Something is very wrong with this gal. If you need a translate, email me. ds
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January 19th Anna Ardin wrote an “article” on her blog called “Seven steps for legal vengeance”.
At the start of the article it reads “a girl fancys a guy that in return does not fancy the girl but fancys another girl behind the first girls back”.
She removed this article before the allegations went public, but not before she had “consulted” with the police.
Source: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:KqxoRlB3Ub0J:annaardin.wordpress.com/2010/01/19/sjustegsmodell-for-laglig-hamnd/+sjustegsmodell+f%C3%B6r+laglig+h%C3%A4mnd&cd=1&hl=sv&ct=clnk&client=safari
Anna Ardin isclose to aradical feminist, she does not thumb on her principals. She’s a very driven and self-righteous person. Which can be witnessed through her blog and essays.
Oh, I forgot. The link:
http://resources.statsvet.uu.se/repository/1/polmag/PraktikutvVT05_del2.PDF
Its an evaluation report for her and several other interns at swedish embassies.
Guardian reports:
“Sources close to the woman said that issues arose during the relationships about Assange’s willingness to use condoms.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/aug/22/wikileaks-julian-assange-sweden
Good job with the translation Nicholas. And thanks for recommendation to our blog Aktivarum. I think our blog was the first source that actually suggested this was swedish radical feminists and not a CIA-plot.
Australian men are well known for being cocky and go-forward types compared to swedish men and we have a serious problem with radical feminism (which is not the same as normal feminism) This gender-ideology-pseudoscience on Universities really give some women crazy ideas.
By the way, the woman in the videos doing information work for the prosecution office, I am embarrased over both the content of her information as well as the fact that she seems to be as bad at english as Hencric “we care about small people” Swanberg.
@Eric, Pistol and bmull
Thanks for the comments.
@bmull, the “condom” theory is one I haven’t heard yet and as far as I am aware, The Guardian are the first to report this. As I said in an earlier comment, these charges of “molestation” are going to depend very much on what difference between what the accusers and the law consider “molestation”. It’s a very wide ranging term in Sweden I understand and can include everything from verbal to physical assault.
@Erik, you may be right that this is a culture clash between a “macho” Australian and a Swedish feminist although Assange doesn´t exactly strike you as the “typical” Australian macho type and he’s surely become sensitive to different cultures having traveled so much.
@Pistol, I’m not sure if that evaluation reveals anything about the accuser that’s relevant to this issue but thanks for the info and comments.
Wow. What a thread. I’ve been following the case closely as well. I’m from Stockholm. This thread is a good example of why blogs are better than the media.
Some off the cuff comments.
@Popcorn: have not seen any interview with the 20yo from Enköping. But I believe I have AA’s address and yes she lives on Södermalm. Also: she’s 31 today, not 30 – her b-day was in March.
There has been talk about ‘consensual sex’ that in both cases turned into something else, yet with no hint or threat of violence. Yet I don’t see AA sleeping w JA – she’s obviously lesbian, if you look at her CV and seen what she wrote one of her masters theses on, and the other ‘toxic’ articles she writes, and combine that with the Gotland nightclub.
There’s a bit of chicken and egg here. How did she become JA’s press secretary? What came first – the invite to speak for Brödraskapsrörelsen or AA? There is an obvious connection between the two. But what came first is important. And who contacted whom? Why would BR contact JA? How would they know he was in town? Would he have come to town otherwise?
AA’s thesis about anti-Castro stuff and her work in Buenos Aires, along with her language skills in Spanish, all point to an agenda. I wouldn’t put it past the frat boys from Langley to dream this up. I wouldn’t put it past them to have already recruited her. And now exploit her to at least infiltrate PP/WL.
That she did freelance work for the national television and radio channel 3 doesn’t have to mean much at all.
@Popcorn: you say you want to dig deeper and find more CV info on her. By searching for what? She’s all over Google but I can’t find what you’re looking for.
Here’s an article by her on her party blog. She’s objecting to the name ‘Broderskap’ – ‘brotherhood’. I’d say she’s very OTT. Two links, same article.
http://www.tidningenbroderskap.se/index.php?page=13&ar_id=4738
http://kristenvanster.wordpress.com/2010/01/27/broder_och_systrar/
She goes back to the French revolution – you know, the ‘fraternité’ bit – and says the French revolution didn’t include women.
These people seem brainwashed from diaper age. They’re not a group we Swedes are very familiar with (thank goodness). They are ‘very far out there’.
What I can’t grab is who the F put JA in contact with this girl – and even if it was through BR: why did he make her his press secretary? And I don’t see him even trying to have sex with her. But I can tell you for a fact that these fringe groups in Sweden are *very* scary – very very – and a lot of people fear them.
I can see her attacking JA through a police complaint. I just can’t see her sleeping with JA or vice versa. If she’s the 30yo then when her background makes it out this whole thing is going to both blow over and get really ugly.
This AA is really scary.
At the same time, the activity in removing her name from press statements (it’s still on Christian’s copy) and her blocking all her blogs – there’s something going on there alright. It’s just I’m not sure if any of them – Falkvinge, Assange, anybody else – knows the whole story.
I’d put my trust for now in Finné. She seems a very stable, very trustworthy type. Keeping the case open does not necessarily mean she’s after JA – she might be looking into nailing the two girls. IMHO.
Cheers.
What I was referring to was the statement from her about a incident (page 5)
“I början av min praktikperiod har jag ett problem med en av de lokalanställda, som under en förevändning att det var ett skämt bland annat skickade krav på “gentjänster” i utbyte mot information jag behövde för arbetet och inviter med sexuell anspelning via mejl. Personen upphörde dock genast med beteendet när jag skickade en länk till en lagtext, men fortsatte under hela min praktikperiod kommentera att jag inte förstod (skämt).”
Translation:
It doesn´t really reveal anything, although it goes in line with the personality she, so far, seems to have. This documented incident above is just another situation where she, allegedly, where harassed sexually, and shows her likelyhood to file charges. I´m not saying that this incident is made up, it´s just another incident involving Anna, sexual harassment and quoting the law.
Big headlines again. A former prosecutor goes on the attack against both current prosecutors. ‘It would have been gratifying for the person they hung up if they’d explained their decisions.’
http://svd.se
http://www.svd.se/nyheter/inrikes/alhem-forklara-er_5172395.svd
This was fascinating, thanks! I hope you keep it up. Ultimately, WikiLeaks as an organization is so much more important than Julian Assange’s sexual proclivities. And yet…color me disappointed. I actually bought into his whole “…capable, generous men do not create victims–they nurture victims…”shtick. For a minute, or two, or three, he was my (okay, I am shallow) very sexy hero. The saddest thing about this whole episode is that WikiLeaks has been tarnished and weakened, which means the “bastards” will once again win.
@bmull – Thanks for the article link on the condom usage.
I think for anyone looking for a more normal, non-conspiracy slathered explanation that would make a lot more sense of the charges.
It makes sense of the lines about him not understanding what “no” means, yet them still engaging in consensual activities.
And it also makes sense of how the women could be legitimately pissed off. And this wouldn’t require hypersensitive feminism.
Now if the issue does come down to condom usage, how does that really come about? Did he cajole the women with stuff like “come on baby, it just doesn’t feel the same” and they went for it? Or are they saying he slipped one past the goalie without the uniform on?
Condom usage during sex has to be one of the most obvious, least joyous processes. You have to take a break, tear open the package, roll on the cold slimy thing & then try to pick up where you left off. It’s not a process you just don’t notice or forget about.
There is still a lot we don’t know about girl20 for those who are still holding out hope for some sort of international conspiracy. But by the same token, this may be just as easily explained by normal sex issues.
Something that does bother me is that it appears that these women are slipping out accusations to the media via “friends close to the women” while still hiding under the cloak of anonymity, while Julian Assange does not get the same playing field, much less know what the actual accusations are.
The condom thing is something we speculated about a while ago. But I don’t think it’s plausible.
@Popcorn: ‘it appears that these women are slipping out accusations to the media’
That’s assuming Expressen didn’t just make it all up. One thing Expressen will never be accused of is good journalism.
I suppose it doesn’t matter to anyone about the civilian Afghanis who are now open to murder and molestation due to the illegal release of classified documents. It doesn’t really matter to me, either. Also, I don’t care if this Wikileaks guy is a rapist. Once you buy and publish secret military documents, I think you’ve pretty much given up on the whole “morals” thing. Anything goes with this guy, and more power to him. (I’d say God Bless Him, but I’m sure that wouldn’t go over too well with God, or his anti-American supporters) Still, F** the man! I’m sure the CIA won’t do anything underhanded. He’ll live a long and free life in a society open to free living, loving, and thinking, such as we are blessed with here in CT, USA. As long as he doesn’t actually come into the USA, cause of course he’d be arrested.
PS. What’s happening now is playing right into the Pentagon’s hands. Everyone’s forgot the war and the bloodshed. It’s a distraction is what JA said. The discussion of the war diaries etc has all died down.
@GamestarP Where you writing all that with a straight face? We obviously don’t live in the same country. And I bet you don’t really care about the Afghanis all that much either.
It seems pretty clear Ardin invited Assange to speak in Stockholm. She must have known he was on the way. That seminar can’t have been Assange’s primary reason for coming to Sweden.
http://twitter.com/annaardin/status/20812869124
I’ve invited Julian Assange from WikiLeaks to Sweden, he’s coming!!
6:46 PM Aug 10th via Twitter for Android
When asked where and when, she responded:
http://twitter.com/annaardin/status/20816327888
11 o’clock, haven’t found a venue yet…
7:41 PM Aug 10th via Twitter for Android in reply to telecomix
Then a day later:
http://twitter.com/annaardin/status/20885589749
Julian Assange, WikLeaks, seminar 11:00 in the LO building! Register with Jan[at]broderskap.se, priority for the press
2:32 PM Aug 11th via Twitter for Android
(A day later they were already sold out.)
So she invited him. But does anyone know if they knew each other before this?
@GamestarP: Oh go blow it. No one here will pay you any attention or ever agree with you. You might get a few people annoyed but I wouldn’t even count on that.
@Popcorn: ‘It makes sense of the lines about him not understanding what “no” means, yet them still engaging in consensual activities.’
Uh – feminists in Sweden are a bit different. They remark that their ‘sisters’ in other countries envy them. That they can say ‘yes’. The Swedish feminists laugh and explain that feminism is not about saying ‘yes’ – it’s about saying ‘no’. This is a very common thing with the Swedish feminists and has been for years.
(Yeah it’s a bit creepy. Welcome to Sweden.
)
@Popcorn: you’re also forgetting there are condom automats and stores everywhere where you can buy them, the supermarket, the tobacconist, the kiosk, everything but the drive-in restaurant (and that’s probably coming). The idea being ‘no unwanted pregnancies’. This has been a norm since before I was born – for perhaps 40-50 years already.
I’d imagine most single Swedish girls have condoms at home anyway. And Assange is too smart to even consider unprotected sex IMHO. Remember: he’s -smart-.
“Uh – feminists in Sweden are a bit different. They remark that their ‘sisters’ in other countries envy them. That they can say ‘yes’. The Swedish feminists laugh and explain that feminism is not about saying ‘yes’ – it’s about saying ‘no’.”
Rick, can you please rephrase this? i don’t understand how swedish feminism is different from this line. er, i am a feminist in u.s.
genuine curiosity, many thanks.
Rephrase? It’s just what it says. You’re talking about different cultures. Then there’s the influence from Norway. A lot of this fits into the picture forming of Ms Ardin.
Hi Rick,
it’s simply your phrasing I don’t quite understand; perhaps i am being dense and i apologize. i don’t want to derail the thread, but in my efforts to understand the story, this kind of comment keeps coming up in the bad google translations of the swedish boards.
when you say, in the second sentence, “That they can say ‘yes’” does “they” mean the swedish feminists can say yes? or the envious sisters in other countries can say yes? if it’s swedish women saying yes, then why would that laugh and say it’s all about saying “no”?
btw, i’m in agreement with most of the assessments made above, i think it’s a regrettable effort to discredit Assange. can’t bring myself to buy into the whole CIA conspiracy thing, but that is why i want to clarify the comments that people make–in passing–about “swedish feminism.
thanks
I think you answered your own question. Norwegian and Swedish feminists – this is really a strange thing. Sweden’s had more equality fifty years ago than most countries have today. Or didn’t you notice that the two prosecutors in the story were women?
The militant feminists in Norway and Sweden aren’t about equality – they’re against sex. They write things like ‘heterosexual sex is unnatural and demeaning’. That a woman shouldn’t be ‘penetrated’ because that’s ‘humiliating’. And stuff like that.
Got your attention? LOL
And that type of talk is what came out in a rush in that interview with the 30yo/Ardin and Aftonbladet – straight out of their playbook. Those phrases are so worn out. They’re better known than the national anthem.
Reminds me of the film ‘Play Misty for Me’ and even if there were any truth in his sexual exploits, like Clint in that film, Assange might take a little more care over which loonies he takes to bed, or more advisedly to masturbate, instead.
The whole story and all information on the Net of the characters involved, give off an unpleasant smell, and a ring of the usual incompetence of tyrannical Mafia types, controlling this world with redneck propaganda.
One day, (and it’s coming fast) the super-rich will lose their power. The clean-up is in transition! (if he’s not assassinated) But the wagon’s rolling, and can’t be stopped.
Assange doesn’t take loonies to bed. Swedes like to think foreigners don’t understand their country, but we’re talking about Assange here. That man was not born yesterday. He’s got the Pentagon breathing down his neck, watching his every move. He grew up in a family suffering from a similar situation. He’s not going to suddenly get reckless.
thanks for the clarification!
@Rick – You have stated that Julian is too smart not to wear condoms & too smart to take loonies to bed. You are throwing too much hero worship on Julian. He is human and prone to mistakes and errors in judgment just like everyone else.
If you really think Julian is so incredibly smart to do stupid things like the ones you mentioned above take a good solid look at who who press secretary was in Sweden and what she has been up to. He should start looking a heck of a lot more human to you right about now.
No. I am basing this assessment on his character. Anyone can see this character. As this is all pure speculation anyway, the best and safest road to take is the one with the best probabilities.
I’ve enumerated why I regard it as folly to think Assange would show any other character when his every step is carefully calculated and when he grew up in an environment where this was practiced regularly.
I agree with you about the press secretary. But that’s no reason to call the man a fool. Because he isn’t.
And what’s not known at this impasse is who elected her to be press secretary. Did he do it? Or did the PP do it? The only place her name was found was on the official PP announcement. It’s since been removed (but remains at Christian’s blog – he’s our MEP for the PP in Brussels).
We don’t know who put her there or why.
Then consider this: in Stockholm Assange is surrounded by a big group of presumably savvy individuals. The PP themselves put her name on the release. Are you saying they understood her to be flaky but refrained from warning Julian? I find that very unlikely.
But equating this – and possibly an infiltration by Langley – with the common use of condoms, something that got paraded all over Friends (Joey and the rest) for ten years, to contend that Julian Assange somehow doesn’t know about AIDS and HIV – that’s just nonsense.
Hero worship? Who? You want to take a second look at the title of this article? I don’t throw accolades around lightly. I rarely throw them around at all. And no, I don’t know Julian personally. None of us do. But to wildly presume that this careful individual fighting the Pentagon – who it’s suggested did that incredible social engineering trick mentioned in the book Underground – should suddenly break character and turn into a complete fool where a woman is concerned…
As I said: we’re all speculating here. And to lean on a story about being a fool in this fashion is flaky speculation. Ta.
@admin: ‘However, my concern has nothing to do with the fact that she is engaged in anti Castro activity’
But if that were the case then you have another possible connection: Reporters Sans Frontières. Yes it’s a stretch but then again what isn’t?
In the event of a possible intelligence connection, Anna Ardin worked as a trainee (praktikant) under the foreign office at several locations in Sweden and abroad, two of them of particular interest.
In 2004 at the defense unit at the swedish embassy in Washington DC organizing conferences and having a partial assignment to the Swedish military intelligence MUST.
In 2005 AA worked with civil crisis management at the foreign office unit for European security policy in Stockholm.
http://resources.statsvet.uu.se/repository/1/polmag/PraktikutvVT05_del2.PDF
FWIW.
@Abel,
you are mixing the info in the document in Swedish. It is a report by several persons. Her report is on pages 3-5 and she was not at the defense unit nor did she work with European security policy that was other persons.
Abel – excellent material. This comment alone will go absolutely viral.
Cheers
GT
Maybe to understand how sick this whole “ultra feminism” in Sweden is remember that the ambassador for Sweden in Brazil at the time AA worked in Argentina was Margareta Winberg, MW is the biggest supporter of a crazy professor in Uppsala (Eva Lundgren), Sweden that claims that in Sweden men commit ritual murder on innocent child on regular basis. After all those allegations she is still working at Uppsala University, why? because she has the support of influential people like MW. AA was educated under the influence of crazy women like Eva Lundgren.
http://www.nkmr.org/english/uppsala_university_burns_a_book_on_recovered_memories.htm
http://www.thelocal.se/2692/20051215/
Google : Eva Lundgren ritual, and you will get a very clear picture on how crazy this “ultra feminists” are. Please do not mix them with real feminists!!
@GT – Please read “Translation”‘s comment & see if his/her comment is accurate. We don’t want misinformation going viral. We want to tease out the facts and get to the bottom of what is going on. Even if the answer turns out to be much more mundane.
[...] This post was Twitted by dredeyedick [...]
@Translation!
Wow, Thanks.
I made a mistake. It is not Anna Ardin that worked at the two assignments in Washington DC and Stockholm.
To repeat: It was not Anna Ardin that worked at the two assignments in Washington DC and Stockholm.
So forget about it. I was simply too tired… sorry about that.
[...] All ny information i samband med rapporteringen leder till nya rekordantal i antalet besökare. Nicholas John Mead har även översatt större delen av rapporteringen till engelska under rubriken ”how to [...]
@Rick: “How did she become JA’s press secretary? What came first – the invite to speak for Brödraskapsrörelsen or AA?”
That’s a very good question. We also know that even the Pirate Party removed her name from their website as her Press Secretary. The original Press release is here:
http://www.mashtechworld.com/2010/08/18/swedish-pirate-get-together-to-host-new-wikileaks-servers-piratpa/
The revised Press release is here:
http://www.piratpartiet.se/feed-item/swedish-pirate-party-host-new-wikileaks-servers?sms_ss=digg
“The anti-Castro stuff and her work in Buenos Aires, along with her language skills in Spanish, all point to an agenda. I wouldn’t put it past the frat boys from Langley (CIA) to dream this up. I wouldn’t put it past them to have already recruited her. And now exploit her to at least infiltrate WikiLeaks.”
We have to be careful here as it’s starting to sound very James Bond. Could the CIA have been guaranteed that Assange would jump into bed with her?
@Pistol “This documented incident above is just another situation where she, allegedly, where harassed sexually, and shows her likelyhood to file charges.”
Thanks for highlighting that part. The document was so long that I wasn’t sure what you were referring to. I see the relevance now to this case in regards what you see as her “eagerness” to resort to the law in anything she considers sexual harassment.
@Rick again, “Big headlines again. A former prosecutor goes on the attack against both current prosecutors. ‘It would have been gratifying for the person they hung up if they’d explained their decisions.”
This is one of the most crucial parts of the whole issue. Why did the Public Prosecutor and Expressen publish his name so quickly and who tipped-off Expressen? It isn’t normal to publish someone’s name in cases like this. For instance, here’s a story in the Swedish press about someone suspected of murder and they are only referred to as a “41-year-old” – and that’s for murder!
http://www.dn.se/sthlm/rattegang-gamla-stan-skottdrama-tyska-stallplan-april-41-aring-stockholms-tingsratt-vardnadstvist-1.906384
Why wasn’t Assange referred to as simply a “39-year-old” then until the facts were established?
@bon_fim, Ultimately, WikiLeaks as an organization is so much more important than Julian Assange’s sexual proclivities.
Absolutely. And this entire episode shifts attention away from that although nevertheless, it’s important to at least try to work out what’s happened here if only to shed some light on what has been very controversial and mysterious incident. I hope that this controversy is resolved justly and legally though so that attention can shift back to the important work WikiLeaks are doing.
@Popcorn, Something that does bother me is that it appears that these women are slipping out accusations to the media via “friends close to the women” while still hiding under the cloak of anonymity, while Julian Assange does not get the same playing field, much less know what the actual accusations are.
Yes I noticed the “sources close to the women” quote for the first time in The Guardian. Although I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it if they’re true. I’m sure that Assange could also issue similar statements through friends or close sources but maybe he has nothing to hide and anything he says, he’s comfortable with it coming straight from his own mouth?
@Gamestar, I suppose it doesn’t matter to anyone about the civilian Afghanis who are now open to murder and molestation due to the illegal release of classified documents.
I completely understand your feelings but we also have to ask the question, how many more lives may the documents save if their release helps bring the invasion of Afghanistan to an end earlier than would have been the case without them? They have done a lot to turn world public opinion against the war and the more public pressure there is to end the invasion, the sooner it will be over. It is a very difficult question and WikiLeaks did even ask The Pentagon for help censoring the names of innocents but they refused. In the end, I’m sure WikiLeaks did their best with the limited resources they have.
@Abel, Thanks for the info but be very careful when translating from Swedish to English. The plot is already James Bond enough without mistakenly saying she’s worked for Swedish intelligence services! @Translation, thanks very much for clearing-up that mistake quickly before things got out of control.
@Erik Larsson, Rick and anyone else talking about “militant feminism”, Be careful not to get too carried away with this as it could be offensive to feminists in general to dismiss her as some kind of “militant feminist loon”. Just because she may be a staunch feminist doesn’t mean that she’s “mentally ill” in some way. However, I understand that some people may be concerned such feelings could “inflame” her anger if this is a case of a “jilted lover” although we really don’t know yet as it’s all wild speculation.
I think enough has been established now about AA for everyone to guess at what kind of personality she may be. There now seems three important questions to shed anymore light on her dealings with Assange:
1. How did she become Assange’s Press Secretary during his visit to Sweden? Was it pre-arranged by her, Assange or someone else?
2. What exactly do the molestation charges pertain to?
Since an arrest warrant was initially issued, it initially seem they are serious. But since the arrest warrant was withdrawn only hours later by a senior prosecutor, it would seem they’re not that serious. Which leads onto…
3. Why did the Public Prosecutor:
a) Issue Assange’s name instead of reply “no comment” when Expressen phoned them sniffing around for a story.
b) Refuse to give a reason for withdrawing the arrest warrant
c) Make no effort to even contact Assange to confirm or deny the allegations.
By the way, on this last issue, there’s a very good clear English explanation of the public prosecution process in Sweden and how it was applied in this case here. It seems that an accusation of rape in Sweden – regardless of whether there’s any convincing evidence – is immediately treated as of the “highest suspicion” and an arrest warrant is instantly issued without even having to consult the accused first:
http://ibnkafkasobiterdicta.wordpress.com/2010/08/22/the-legal-twists-and-turns-of-the-rape-charges-against-julian-assange/#comment-17563
New information from Flashback forum:
Police report has reference number 0201-k246336-10, assault.
Investigating policeman Mats Gellin, investigative division ku / f, Telephone +46-8-4010838.
Plaintiff is Anna Bernardin.
Since rape has been closed the other girl does not arise.
Anna Bernardin notification is active and she is the notifier.
How peculiar, Google Translator translates Ardin to Bernardin…
http://translate.google.se/#sv|en|Ardin
I don’t have the time to look up the link right now, it’s on the site Flashback and about a whole different matter. But Anna Ardin is mentioned and if I remember correctly she makes lectures about sexual harassment and the male “master suppression techniques”. During one of these lectures one of the males in the audience were checking his notes. Anna Ardin then reports him for sexual harassment because he obviously must be discriminating against her for being a woman and using one of the male “master suppression techniques” to try to make her feel invisible. After the man learns about this he contacts her to apologize and explain himself. Anna Ardin’s response is to once again report him for sexual harassment because now he’s using the “master suppression technique” of belittling her feelings/experience. It’s something like that if I remember correctly.
I’m a feminist but this woman is a FANATIC that makes it harder for the rest of us…
[...] [...]
“Why did the Public Prosecutor and Expressen publish his name so quickly” -Nicholas
As far as the paper is concerned, I believe the excuse is that Julian Assange is a “Public Persona” such as a celebrity or a politician and thus does not deserve the same protection as a more private person.. Someone over on Reddit claiming to be a Swedish reporter answered that question.
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/d3w6q/iama_scandinavian_journalist_in_a_national/c0xddzm
“and who tipped-off Expressen?” – Nicholas
Candidates could include a police officer, Anna or one of the girls themselves. But at the end of the day, nobody is very good a keeping secrets, especially big secrets. It very well could have gone from any of the above to a friend & then their friend until it finally fell into the lap of a reporter. We saw how fast this story spread. Why should we think a word of mouth rumor would spread any slower. According to the Expressing, the 20ish year old girl had already texted her friends after the alleged incident with Julian. Odds are they wanted an update or were kept in the loop too.
Direct tip offs are still a possibility. Reporters are always trying to make sure they have a decent in with the police to get the big scoops. And maybe Anna went into publicity mode. Who knows at this point.
This is strangely similar to what happened to Al Gore here in Portland, OR.
He was accused of improper sexual advances toward a masseuse after receiving a massage treatment in his hotel room.
An investigation revealed she had made similar claims against others that did not pass the smell test.
Charges were later dropped.
Do not get carried away use Occam’s razor, no conspiracy, no CIA etc. Just a simple party that, literally, ended in the wrong direction.
@J – A story like certainly sounds extraordinary, perhaps reliant and needs documentation & references to be deemed credible. And the value of that story will depend on who has told it. If that is from her own mouth, it might be quite valuable as it serves to identify her frame of mind.
@Pelle, thanks. I suspect an English person has found the police report on the net and translated it online and as you say, “Ardin” translates as “Bernadin” for some reason in Google.
So it is now confirmed by Swedish police that Anna Ardin is one of the women making the allegations.
@J, I’m not sure what link you are referring to?
@Popcorn, “As far as the paper is concerned, I believe the excuse is that Julian Assange is a “Public Persona” such as a celebrity or a politician and thus does not deserve the same protection as a more private person.
Why have they never issued famous names in the past then? I’ve been told that there have been cases of sports stars and other famous people being in exactly the same situation as Assange and no names have been issued. It would be useful if someone out there could give some concrete examples of when this has happened in the past in Sweden.
You say: “According to Expressen, the 20ish year old girl had already texted her friends after the alleged incident with Julian.”
I always thought this is a very strange way to react to a “rape”. Would a girl’s first reaction to text her friends about it? If so, yes, those friends, along with AA and others who were in the loop may have tipped-off Expressen but we need something a bit more concrete than that to get to the bottom of things.
@Buck Mulligan, There have been suggestions on here that it could be something like that. There is sketchy evidence that AA has a history of being a bit too “eager” to call the law when she considers a molestation has taken place although it’s mainly based on second-hand reports with no concrete police reports or evidence.
I think that it should be added that Anna Ardin is the press spokesperson for Broderskapsrörelsen (Christian and muslim Socialdemocrats). Broderskapsrörelsen has recently published a new magazine to promote a dialogue between muslims and Socialdemocrats.
That magazine is MUCH HATED by different “nationalist groups” in Sweden. There was a discussion in Sweden about initiating a campaign against Broderskapsrörelsen.
I think that it should be noted that the blog that first wrote about Ardin and Assange is run by NAZIS. ( https://gotiskaklubben.wordpress.com/2010/08/22/anna-ardin-varldens-mest-hatade-kvinna-just-nu/ )
Here is the magazine, the name Ardin is on page two. http://aip.nu/files/AKIP100817E.html
I dont know whether Ardin is the woman that went to the police or not, but I VERY MUCH RECOMMEND EVERYONE TO BE VERY CAREFUL WHEN ANALYZING THE SITUATION!
/T
Looked for the story again since I felt uncertain about what I had read so long ago. It could involve another woman with A at the beginning of her first name working at the exact same place as Anna with the same issues. A woman named Annika. It’s possible that I mixed them up since they work with the same issues.
Some links in Swedish about the case I talked about…
http://tanjabergkvist.wordpress.com/2009/05/11/ett-skrackexempel-pa-genusvaldet/
http://www.svd.se/opinion/ledarsidan/mansgrisigt-att-bladdra-i-papper-pa-universitet_2897797.svd
http://www.axess.se/public/document/beslut.pdf
The post on Flashback mentions this Annika person as the one to contact regarding sexual harassment complaints and gives the link as an example of what she can do. The links doesn’t say it’s Annika but the person writing about it on Flashback may have other information regarding the case.
Perhaps Annika is the one doing all the lectures for example.
My mind jumped to conclusions, I’m sorry.
It does however say something about the mindset of the people working at that particular department at Uppsala University…
@J – Don’t worry about jumping to conclusions. The point is that we help each other out and debunk each other’s bogus ideas so that we all come closer to the truth faster, rather than never at all.
https://www.flashback.org/sp25026857
claims that Anna Ardin is the person who reported Julian Assange. The number of the filed report and contact information is here
https://www.flashback.org/sp25026857
This is apparently public domain, and should be easily verified.
Article about the fact that nazis were the first once to claim that Anna Ardin was the woman tha accused Assange:
http://ligator.wordpress.com/2010/08/23/are-nazis-behind-the-mob-against-anna-ardin/
Are nazis behind the mob against Anna Ardin?
http://ligator.wordpress.com/2010/08/23/are-nazis-behind-the-mob-against-anna-ardin/
Posted by jerlerup den augusti 23, 2010
This is something I have hesitated to write about but now I have to write the story. I can do it now because the story, and the name of the woman I will write about, is public on the internet.
When the founder of Wikileaks recently visited Sweden he was accused of being a rapist. According to Expressen, he sexually harassed a woman in Södermalm, Stockholm. Two or three days later, he supposedly raped another woman in Enköping.
This article does not deal with the accusations against Assange, but with the mob that nowclaims that Anna Ardin is one of the women behind the accusations.
Whether she is one of the women that visited the police or not, is impossible to say. But it is very clear that Swedish nazis were the first once to claim that Anna Ardin is one of the women.
Why did they do that?
Swedish nazis and rightwing groups has for some time been very angry at the Christian Socialdemocrats, Broderskapsrörelsen, that has started to work with Swedish muslims. Last week it published a new magazine, ”Islam”. On this pressrelease one can read that Ardin is the project leader.
The magazine can be read here, on page two is her name and the title ”leader of the project”.
Swedish rightwing groups and nazis indicated well before last week, that they were to start some kind of campaign against Broderskapsrörelsen and the new magazine.
Different rightwing blogs talked about this the weeks before the magazine was made public. And the very week that the magazin was published the campaign the allegations against Anna Ardin, who is the head of the project, is made public, and the nazi-opponents of the magazin she is responsible for, are the first once to write about it. An accident? hardly!
Anna Ardin has witten much POSITIVE ARTICLES about islam on her blog during the recent years and has been a public opponent of Sverigedemokraterna, a rightwing party ANTI-MUSLIM party, that probably will enter the parliament this year, too. And she has been much hated for this. ( As can be ween in this google search. )
Gotiska klubben
The mob against Anna Ardin was started on Flashback.info but it was made public at this blog: https://gotiskaklubben.wordpress.com/2010/08/22/anna-ardin-varldens-mest-hatade-kvinna-just-nu/
If you look at the blog you will find that it attacks jews, and it is also very hateful against islam.
So now the internet globally is filled with hate against the woman that allegedly has ”accused Assange of being a rapist”.
Ardin is also very hated in Sweden because of her work with womens rights, and right wing extremists were the first once to attack Ardin because of her views of feminism.
I dont know anything about the accusations against Assange. I know that celebrities has raped women before, but I do also know that intelligence services has used women to destroy the lifes of people before.
BUT PLEASE TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THAT THE PEOPLE THAT INITIATED THE CAMPAIGN AGAINST ANNA ARDIN ARE RIGHT WING EXTREMISTS AND NAZIS!!!
Everyone has the right to be ”innocent until proven guilty”, Anna Ardin too! Please remember that!
@Jererup, There is absolutely no evidence that “nazis” were the “first” to claim Anna Ardin did it. Unless you can provide some.
Incidentally, it hasn’t been mentioned on here yet but Assange claims in an interview with Al-Jazeera that he was warned by Australian secret services on 11 August that some kind of smear plot was underway against him:
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2010/08/2010822135529927326.html
@Nicholas – Jerlerup’s story sounds like satire.
There are such evidence. The first blog that published is was Gotiska Klubben, tha link to that site can be found on my blog. You can analyze Flashback.info too and look at WHO were the first once to write about it.
I dont know what is true about Assange, BUT WE SHOULD KEEP IN MIND THAT THE FIRST ONCE THAT NAMED ANNA ARDIN WERE SWEDISH NAZIS.
Tha accusations against Assange is one thing. I agree with what you write about that this possibly is a smear campaign.
But something stinks. There might be more smear campaigns and more desinformation that we belived at first.
http://ligator.wordpress.com/2010/08/23/are-nazis-behind-the-mob-against-anna-ardin/
Dont simpliy things Popcorn. We already know that something is rotten here. We must ve careful not to draw to early conclusions…
/Torbjörn
(Swede)
Jerlerup, who gives a damn who found out that it was Anna Ardin?
What matters is if they are correct or not. And they were correct. If that had NOT been the case, your crusade against nazis would be interesting.
Now you’re only making a fool out of yourself.
@jerlerup
…so what you are essentially setting up is that anyone who criticizes Anna is either a Nazi or is working with the Nazis. That sounds like you just Godwined any discussion on this subject that might be critical of a person who has made allegations against Assange. It almost sounds as if you are attempting to make this issue undebatable for fear that anyone who does… must be a Nazi!
Look, I don’t care who is claiming what. What I do want to know, is what the truth is. As far as I am concerned, what you are bringing up is just a diversion from the main subject be it true or not.
As for not drawing early conclusions, I whole heartedly agree with you on that point. Right now there are few facts and a lot of speculation. Some speculation is good as it is a method of asking questions. What ultimately matters the most is digging out the facts & living with those fact no matter what they are.
But if it is NOT Anna Ardin, but someone else? What do you do then. Do you give a damn about that too?
@jerlerup, I’d agree with Lucky Luke and Popcorn on that issue. Does it really matter who said it was her first? The important point is the police themselves have confirmed it was her – so I think we can rule out a Nazi plot to frame her!
Meanwhile this is a very interesting interview by Al Jazeera with the public prosecutor. Note her absolute refusal to answer the question:
She gets very uptight when asked about this very very crucial part of this entire scandal:
Swedish nazis? My God, jerlerup, you are delirious.
Just for the record, AA is confirmed to be one of the women.
And, damn, Karin Rosander is truly a embarrassment for anyone who calls themselfs swedish. I couldn´t even finish watching that clip.
I find this forum very well informed and level headed, so I would like to make a contribution with a theory of what might have happened.
First a recap of what has been discussed already:
* AA is involved with the invitation of JA to speak at Broderskaps. She gets all fired up because she sees herself getting a bit of careerboosting attention. She acts like a pop star groupie, in essence.
* I think she is probably bisexual. Indicated by the fact that she did claim she had sex with JA, and by that lesbian club on Gotland she was part of starting.
* Something sexual happens between them and she is discontent for some reason. She does admit it was consensual to start with. He may have dumped one of these chicks for the other and they get ticked off over that. See the “7 points for revenge” bit…
* So they decide to do it the legal way. In one of those “revenge” articles referred above there is a warning for not doing something illegal yourself, so the y”consult” with the cops about what they can get caught for themselves and what will be risk free.
* Once they have talked with the police about rape, the police are obliged to continue with the process even if the woman does not. “Allmant atal” in Swedish. The State against JA, not her. So the legal process is on.
*** Here is what I guess regarding the bit people seem puzzled about above: How did the information leak?
I think she leaked it herself! To start with, at least. She has worked for that paper, GT/Expressen, so she may have friends there that she trusts. And Expressens main rival Aftonbladet is just about to score a scoop by publishing a piece by JA. Bingo! here is a chance! So the journalists calls up the attorney and asks a few questions that make it seem that they know more than they do, by showing that they know quite a lot already. The attorney blunders or is simply too stupid, or she is a feminazi as well? Who knows? But there does not need to be a leak from the attorneys office to start with, it may have been provoked by GT/Expressen, using AAs info.
* I do not subscribe to any conspiracy theory. It is too far fetched. AA is too volatile for any spook’s taste, a loose cannon. But once the news break they are all over it of course, like flies on shit. Who can blame them, actually. They quickly figure out that they will get the blame, in part and by some, so they might as well get some use for it.
Great job everyone! I am impressed with what I have read above.
One thing I think most of us can agree on is that publishing the allegations against Julian before a proper investigation could be done has caused harm. IF Julian is innocent, his reputation has been forever tarnished. IF Julian is guilty, both women will be dragged through the mud & speculated about until it is fully investigated & at that the women may be reluctant to get more involved in investigation or prosecution as it creates a bigger mess for them. Just my 2 cents.
Feminism has taken over the rules of law i Sweden.
If anyone is thinking of visiting this country you hould not talk to or look at a woman more than necessary.
In this country every man is seen as a true potential rapist.
What is a Press Secretary in Sweden and how do you get in such a position? Mr. Assange is one of the two spokesmen of Wikileaks. At least over here in Germany, Mr. Schmitt, the other speaker, categorically denies that there is such thing as a Press Secretary in the ranks of Wikileaks.
It was a nice place here, thanks admin & popcorn. Sad that now the usual wind borne internet sand starts to fill up the comments.
I really don’t understand the hate being unleashed at feminists here. Have feminists replaced the CIA as the conspiracy theorist target of choice in Sweden? Since when was it a thought crime to not want to be sexually harassed? Some feminists may hold extreme views on penetration being an inherently dominant act, but this does not make them “mentally unstable” or “crazy,” just far outside the norm.
It is impossible for a forum like this to determine what happened unless one of the people involved wants to lay out what happened during sex. The likelihood of that happening is about zero. Until then, all this work seems like little more than an attempt at character assassination by trying to paint AA as unstable or crazy. That is, it’s the exact same thing everyone is rightly accusing Expressen of in regards to Assange.
Both Julian and AA are fairly radical characters. They might both be good people (shocking!) who happen to have fundamentally different understandings of what happened. That happens with sex. This is a private matter that was needlessly smeared across the front page.
Pugget, are you Swedish? Have you spent much time in Sweden? If you had, you might have noticed the inquisition that is going on…
Great blog guys (and girls), I’ve been reading with great interest.
Has it occurred to anyone else but me that perhaps the first prosecutor was actually a whistle-blower, knowing that naming JA at that early stage of the prosecution process would undoubtedly derail the process before it had even begun and thus getting him off the hook?
The only whistle you would hear around her would be the wind through her ears… No, no whistle blower, I don’t think so at all, my friend.
It is a possibility, and it surely embarrassed the chief prosecutor enough to put promptly the lid on. Perhaps the case against JA would have been stronger had they had the time to prepare?
@Pistol, Agreed. The way the Public Prosecutor handles the Al Jazeera interview is poor. It only incriminates them more when she won’t answer a simple question – “Why wasn’t Mr Assange contacted immediately?” Funny how they have no problem saying “No comment” now, but not when it really mattered.
@Celsius, I think you’ve suggested one of the most plausible explanations yet. As you say, it seems more likely that this was a personal vendetta which powerful interests may have hijacked at some stage to turn to their advantage. However, note that she HAS NOT worked for GT/Expressen as far as we known. It was discovered by someone here that she was a “temporary deputy editor for GT” but the paper she refers to isn’t GT/Expressen – it’s Gotland Tidningar – a small newspaper on the Swedish island of Gotland! More on this here:
http://nicholasmead.com/2010/08/21/how-to-smear-a-hero/#comment-1575
@Popcorn, absolutely right. The main aim of the accusers here was defamation. Whether it was the women or more powerful interests, they’ve achieved their aim. They haven’t stopped WikiLeaks however and are unlikely to do so which is the most important thing as I’m sure even Assange would agree.
@Jon, Please don’t bring the anti-feminist thing into this. We’ve been through that earlier and this shouldn’t be used a sexist excuse to have a go at feminists although I appreciate you put a smiley at the end so I’ll assume it’s tongue in cheek!
@With fame comes flame, Thanks and I’ll try to make sure that the comments don’t get too wild but in the spirit of WikiLeaks openness, I’m trying to allow the debate to be as open as possible.
@Pugget, You say: “It is impossible for a forum like this to determine what happened unless one of the people involved wants to lay out what happened during sex. The likelihood of that happening is about zero. Until then, all this work seems like little more than an attempt at character assassination by trying to paint AA as unstable or crazy. That is, it’s the exact same thing everyone is rightly accusing Expressen of in regards to Assange.”
You’re absolutely right that no one on here can possibly know what happened in the bedroom. It’s certainly not supposed to be a character assassination though – just an early transparent look at who’s making the accusations and the likelihood of them being genuine, considering Assange’s sensitive political position at the moment.
@Christus, That would have to be one hell of a dumb prosecutor! To defame him with the label of “rapist” for the rest of his life in some bizarre attempt to “save” him from a mysterious shadowy trial is surely worse than having to fight the battle behind closed doors, even if it was a plot.
GamestarP: “…in a society open to free living, loving, and thinking, such as we are blessed with here in CT, USA…”
That’s just too funny.
You mean, “free” like in USA, where rich corporations control the people, and tell them what, how, and when to consume? You mean that “free” like in USA where lobbying and buying politicians is common standard?
No wonder that even poor immigrants from east-europe and asia prefer EU countries to USA nowadays. At least they are treated fairly.
@funnyguy, Ok fair comment but please let’s keep this debate focused on Assange and the allegations!
Well, I certainly read many of the comments (of, say, Celsius, who talks of an “inquisition”) as being more than happy to see the fact that AA is a feminist as a smear in itself. The assumption that a post she made in January (the revenge post) has something to do with her actions in this case is highly questionable. People often post things they find interesting, not necessarily because they condone or approve of them. To assume that those bullet points lay out her personal philosophy to life, when the text surrounding them does not state that, is a jump in logic. And yet the current case supported by admin seems to be that this action was taken in revenge, and that the January post is some sort of evidence for that. I would submit you have nothing but very circumstantial evidence.
My larger point is that we, as observers, should aim to be neutral to the parties unless there is clear evidence of malice. I don’t see evidence of malice here. Trying to understand more about each party is, to the extent the information is public, understandable. But smearing AA does not make up for the smearing of Assange. And let me be clear: Assange /has/ been smeared here. It’s just an open question as to who has done that smearing. I would suggest the most likely target is Expressen, trying to get a cheap headline to sell papers.
@Pugget, I completely agree that just because she writes a blog post entitled “7 steps to legal revenge” about how to get revenge on a lover does not mean that’s what she’s done here. It’s up for other people reading this to decide whether they think it, plus other evidence presented, would have any bearing on her real life actions.
And I also completely agree that this should be about trying to be neutral observers in a relatively rational and open debate making their own minds-up about what’s happened. I have also tried to warn people about not jumping on the “feminist bashing bandwagon” as that’s not helping anyone either.
Great Blogging. The best on this story anywhere.
a) I’m tired of “Julian Assange” the celebrity, the “face” of Wikileaks. I know he didn’t ask for celebrity status, but I don’t think he’s doing enough to shift the focus onto wikileaks and/or the documents in question during interviews etc..
So you’ve got a celebrity face of wikileaks and surprise surprise, he’s attacked because he’s much easier target than the organization as a whole, and now the discussion is all about Julian Assange. And like it or not, this means many peoples’ perception/opinion of Wikileaks the organization is based solely on Assange and his public image, which can be quite fragile.
b) I’m disappointed to see the instant jump to typical misogynistic attacks on the women involved. I have no idea what the truth of the case is, but people quickly accusing the women of being “mentally unstable” and ‘just jealous’ (read: “too emotional”) — both typical attacks on women who stand up for themselves — is really sickening. Because **YOU don’t know this woman either, nor do you know the truth of the case.**
Is it /inconceivable/ that Assange engaged in some sexual impropriety? Honestly, many of you act as tho Assange descended from heaven earlier this year. He is a person, a man, and he didn’t grow up in a “patriarchy-free” bubble.
I support wikileaks, and I think the timing of the rape allegations seems a little too convenient, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to immediately attack the women involved and accuse them of “typical female hysterics.”
UPDATE: I just read the comments about the “7 steps to revenge”… perhaps there is some basis to the above commenters’ accusations against this woman… oh well, maybe I’m wrong about point (b)! (Tho I still maintain that Assange is a great person but NOT a saint!)
@Nicholas Indeed, great blogging and moderating. This space is becoming my turn-to source for intelligent discussion.
@Pugget Thanks for your even-handed comments. As a woman and a feminist, I was starting to feel decidedly alienated by the shrill and aggressive tone of the commentary that came before…
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Phoebe Paxton, Dave Manchester, murray regan, Market Mentat, murray regan and others. murray regan said: RT @marketmentat: @wikileaks IMPORTANT: one of the Assange accusers has links to Swedish military intelligence… http://bit.ly/9sNi4H #wikileaks [...]
this is cointelpro 2010 / its been done against activists and whistleblowers minority groups since the 20s
@mik I don’t think there is evidence of this (yet?). A glance at the above posts seems to point to it being an embittered attempt to hurt Assange personally.
@ exile
Well of course that’s what it points to. One of the goals of an intelligence organization would be to make the “evidence” point to anyone but them. In the U.S. there is never evidence even when there is and the truth only comes out, if it ever does, decades after the fact.
What I find disturbing is the willingness to dismiss something as “conspiracy theory” simply because it’s too big or “out there” for people to process or they are afraid to “go there.” The United States has a long and completely sordid history with this type of thing.
It may well indeed not have anything to do with U.S. intelligence opperations but, at this point, given history, IMO we should be working from the assumption that it probably does rather than the opposite.
For those busy bashing, lambasting and blaming people & groups like the two women, feminists, USA, CIA, Corporate Powers etc. for this, I just want to remind all of you that right now we still don’t know shit.
We have a few more facts, a LOT of hypothesis of what happened, but most of what we are going on is speculation. Just like we shouldn’t automatically assume Julian Assange is guilty, neither should we automatically assume that either of these two women, or feminism as a whole is guilty of what has occurred.
Make sure you understand the difference between, speculating on what happened, asking questions related to those speculations & seeing what facts come up vs. flat out assuming that someone is a “liar,” “slut,” “whore,” “man-hater.”
Trust me, I know the way feminism has turned out in today’s world is easy lambaste, and may well deserve some just vilification. Let’s just make sure the people/entities involved actually do deserve it in this situation first.
Does any one have a good easy to use Swedish => English web translator? Google & Bing’s translators will not work on https webpages.
“For those busy bashing, lambasting and blaming people & groups like the two women, feminists, USA, CIA, Corporate Powers etc. for this, I just want to remind all of you that right now we still don’t know shit.”
That’s quite a group you have assembled. They are all equal in your eyes? Two individual women, corporations, the CIA and the United States Government are all deserving of the same amount of fairness with regard to “innocent until proven guilty?”
You are joking correct?
Rape is a very serious allegation and not easy to prove in a Court of Law once the evidence has been washed away.
Unless of course they have done a Monica Lewinsky and kept their evidence in the freezer along with their frozen vegetables, this story never had legs. (No pun intended)
Assange ,while in Sweden decides to rape not one but two women, only later do the women decide they have been molested or raped. Sounds a bit like the prostitute who cried rape a week later …..after her punters cheque had bounced.
Journalism no longer exists, reporters sell their soul to the highest bidder . We need people like Wikileaks to whistleblow on what is happening to our world and the deceit that goes on with those who are in power.
I support anyone who wishes the truth to be known even if it means bringing a Goverment to its knees. The bullshit has to stop and those in power have to realise we are not all sheep. People are beginning to fight back..Twitter has teeth and the story died within hours because no one believed it and hard questions were being asked…the newspaper in question buckled…a retraction swiftly followed. Thats one step up for the little people and shows once more there is nothing like a woman scorned.
HLARIOUS if in the end ASSANGE turns round and tells us all he is gay.
[...] comment on the English interpretations of their meanings but you can see discussion of them in this comment thread – some are saying this appears to be a case of a jealousy.) make an allegation against [...]
A drop from a foreigner in the flashback thread pointed out that Anna Ardin has a cousin Mattias Ardin, Överstelöjtnant (google trans. Lieutenant Colonel) and former chief for the swedish contingency in Afghanistan. Anna and Mattias wife Petra are friends on facebook.
The same nick also drawed our attention to the recent visit of US chief of naval operations admiral Gary J Roughead at the Swedish marine base in Karlskrona.
http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=3629&artikel=3934678
What he is doing there is anyones guess but coincides of course with the recent drumbeating about an attack on wikileaks.
http://spectator.org/archives/2010/08/23/lets-have-a-wikileaks-fire-sal
Links confirming Annas and Mattias relationship
Mattias: http://berzelius.com/familytree/ghtout/gp155.htm
Anna: http://berzelius.com/familytree/ghtout/gp150.htm#head2
Grandpa Martin:
http://berzelius.com/familytree/ghtout/gp60.htm#head3
powerstep: your hilarious joke is no joke. Julian has a perfect defense for heterosexual assault. The ladies were simply disappointed to be misled about hacker culture.
@blink – No they are not all equal. But I think it is important to have a healthy amount of skepticism about any unproven speculation.
Right now the news media is picking up and running with the story that wikileaks supporters are claiming this is a CIA conspiracy. But if it doesn’t turn out that way, they will look like fools and will be easily dismissed the next time serious allegations come forward.
It’s best not to let yourself look like a tin-foil hat conspiracy theorist. And even more important not to actually turn into one.
Anna Ardin have worked as an intern at the Swedish Ambasy in Buenos Aires. So its not out of the question that she has been recruited earlier in her carier (reports from her internship can be obtained from Uppsala Universitet, The Universety of Uppsala in Sweden. This report, written by Anna, also contains details of a somewhat weird sexul abuse she claimed to be the victim of at the ambasy).
This probably has nothing to do with anything but check out this picture. She seems to have a ring in her ring finger.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kristenvanster/3964983729/
“This photo was taken on May 30, 2009 using a Canon EOS 1000D.”
I was wondering why everyone was referring to a Mats Gellin.
It turns out that Anna Ardin has another open investigation with the police on him.
https://www.flashback.org/sp25026857
> Police report has reference number 0201-k246336-10 assault
> Police are investigating Mats Gellin investigative division ku / f Tel 4010838
> Plaintiff is Anna Bernardin
> Anna Bernardin notification is active and she is a notifier.
@Anonymous – I saw that too. Everything I have read says that she is not married and without children. Someone suggested it’s a “Jesus Ring.”
But given her extensive history with gay culture, I would speculate that it may have been a partner ring for whomever she was with at the time.
Has anyone picked up on this quote from “The Australian?”
“…Swedish authorities are thought to have become suspicious on Saturday morning when it became clear that the anonymous allegations had been made first to tabloid newspapers and only later to police.”
This is the first time I have heard this tid bit of info.
Lends credence to the C.I.A./ Pentagon angle no?
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/false-rape-claim-against-assange-us-dirty-tricks/story-e6frg6nf-1225909113236
[...] How to smear a hero How do you discredit someone who undermines systems of power? In the old days, the CIA would just assassinate and [...] [...]
@Vincible1 That article is originally from the Times. They don’t cite a source, and the use of the weasel words, “are thought to have… ” compromises the credibility of the quote. It may or may not be true, but the way it is reported reduces it to mere words.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/sitesearch.do?querystring=assange§ionId=342&p=tto&pf=all
@exile The wording is certainly poor. Perhaps I should have said in response: “If true, it could lend credence to the C.I.A/ Pentagon smear angle.” (how’s that for waffling?)
Thanks for pointing out that it came from the Times. I missed that.
The Guardian wraps up what is currently known rather nicely in this mornings paper:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/aug/24/assange-wikileaks-swedish-prosecutors-charges
@ec and bon_fim, thanks for the nice comments
@mik, blink, exile, If we are to believe this is a top level CIA plot, we have to believe that they somehow made her or paid her to write some of the blog posts covered in these comments such as the “7 steps to legal revenge” which she wrote back in January. Alternatively, we have to believe that the intelligence agencies somehow knew Assange’s spontaneous trip to Sweden was going to happen several months in advance (impossible as I don’t think even he knew he was going to have to go there to try and secure servers for WikiLeaks), trawled the net looking for someone like her and then convinced her to take part in a plot. Either way, they had to be sure he would jump in bed with her and there was no guarantee of that. I find it very hard to believe either scenario could have happened.
Blink, you say “IMO we should be working from the assumption that it probably does rather than the opposite” but I don’t agree. We should take a cold rational look at the evidence and make logical conclusions without prejudice it with pre-conceived ideas of what happened. As Popcorn says, it’s all pure speculation as we have very little to go on other than circumstantial evidence so must be very careful of getting too carried away!
@Abel, Interesting information but just because an American Colonel comes to Sweden to visit an army base doesn’t mean much. If the Americans needed to fill Stockholm with service agents, I’m sure their enormous wire fenced Embassy has room for plenty of them. Not sure we can read much into the fact that she was friends with the wife of a former Swedish army chief in Afghanistan either although it will certainly add fuel to the conspiracy theories.
@Xepelin, Thanks although we’re already aware of the report she wrote while on an internship in Buenos Aires where she claims a man made inappropriate sexual comments towards her.
@Anonymous, I think girl’s do wear rings other than wedding or engagement rings so I don’t think that proves much but thanks for the picture!
@Popcorn, I thought that police report was the formal report she made on the incident with Assange not a new one. Pistol reported it earlier here to confirm it was AA:
http://nicholasmead.com/2010/08/21/how-to-smear-a-hero/#comment-1627
@Vincible1 and exile, That’s the first I’ve read it reported that way too. This is still a big mystery that isn’t quite clear – was Expressen newspaper informed before the police? I asked them directly via Twitter about this issue and they replied that said:
http://twitter.com/Expressen/status/21930748387
I asked them if they meant days before or after the arrest warrant was issued but got no further response.
Not sure if it “Lends credence to the C.I.A./ Pentagon angle no?”. It just means that if true, someone tipped-off the newspaper before the police suggesting it was a stitch-up on Assange. The question then remains was it just a jilted-lover trying to get revenge or something darker?
@Pugget, Thanks for The Guardian link (they were very late picking this story up by the way – it must have taken them almost an hour after the story broke to get it online although it was a weekend and suspect they are short staffed then).
However, their latest reports is one of the clearest and most revealing yet that I’ve read.
Without wanting to speculate too much on Assange’s bedroom activities, one increasingly strong possibility is that the allegations have been made because he refused to wear a condom. Both incidences seem to have started consensually but then gone bad later. Both incidences took place in the morning suggesting that he slept with both of them in the evening using a condom but then in morning when they woke up, fancied some more but didn’t have a condom which is when the problems started hence the women’s desire that he take a “health check” and has a problem with taking “no” for an answer.
Some interesting quotes from the The Guardian article:
Finally, note that The Guardian report the arrest warrant leak took place after it was issued, not before as the The Times did as pointed out by Vincible1 and exile.
Without wanting to speculate too much about Assange’s bedroom antics, since both women are making accusations about an act that happened in the morning, it’s possible the “condom” allegations are because they had sex in the evening and everything was fine but then in the morning he still fancied some more but there were no condoms left. It’s not clear if this is what one of the women regards as a “twisted” view of women or if that refers to something else that happened.
The rather garbled story of how they reported it to the police “but didn’t want to report it or take it further” is still very strange too. If they didn’t want to report it, why did they go into the police station in the first place?
In addition, while the details of the molestation claims become a little bit clearer, what remains a complete mystery is why the public prosecutor issued Assange’s name before they’d even contacted him which is against their policy as it can compromise their own investigation as it gives those issued with an arrest warrant a chance to escape or pervert the investigation before they’ve been arrested! It’s still not clear what “new” evidence emerged in the few hours between issuing and revoking the arrest warrant.
There are still a lot of question marks hanging over that as the public prosecutors bizarre actions have defamed Assange for the rest of his life.
Indeed, the the idea that one can go to the police and report a rape, and then request them not to prosecute seems laughable. I can’t quite bring myself to believe that either woman had such a cavalier attitude. There may be some regret over how the whole incident has worked out in those comments.
The quote about having a problem taking no as an answer also does not match up with only pursuing a molestation (harassment charge). Clearly, if either woman had said no, and then Assange forced himself upon them, that would be the definition of rape. Yet the prosecutors dropped that charge, saying there was no basis for such a claim. Then what was it? Reluctant sex?
No doubt, feeling like someone has pressured you into consenting to initially undesired advances could feel like harassment. But this whole case continues to lack a cogent storyline.
As you say, the main issue that really needs public pressure is why the prosecutors acted in the way they did, and who leaked the information to Expressen.
AA has claimed in an interview with Aftonbladet that JA wasn’t violent, which means that he hasn’t forced himself onto her. Which means that if AA wanted him to use a condom and he refused, she must have agreed at some stage to have sex with him anyway. That is neither rape or molestation. It’s just a girl who is so eager to have sex with a celeb/hero that she allows him to talk her into having sex without condom and afterwards when she realizes that he slept with someone else, maybe feels a little bit used and maybe a little bit jealous.
So, if that is what happened, I wouldn’t call JA a rapist, just disrespectful.
He sounds like any bachelor/player to me
(Since the other girl hasn’t really spoken out in the media I can’t say to much about what I think happened there)
[...] the international crowd, Nicholas John Mead is still a great source. Postat i Allmänt, Definitioner, Demokrati, Genus, Jämställdhet, [...]
So Leif Silbersky is Assanges lawyer. No surprises there. Swedens nr #1 Celebrity lawyer.
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article7666480.ab
Evidently Swedish sex laws are not based on consent like the US & UK laws many of us are used to. Swedish sex law prosecutions are based on criminal intent.
Here is a hypothetical scenario that Anna Ardin put up on her blog in 2006 about how the law would treat a women if she withdrew consent in the middle of a sex act, but did not necessarily opt to express herself clearly.
But what is REALLY of interest is the IM conversation between Alexandria & Sarah in the Comment Section going into detail on how those Swedish laws play out.
Google English Translation:
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search%3Fsourceid%3Dchrome%26ie%3DUTF-8%26q%3Dcache:http://annaardin.blogspot.com/2006/06/vldtkt_01.html&sl=sv&tl=en
Google Cache version in Swedish:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=cache:http://annaardin.blogspot.com/2006/06/vldtkt_01.html
Thanks Ergo. Looks like it’s unlikely the charges will be dropped either as the two women now have a lawyer (Claes Borgstrom) who says he definitely think Assange should be tried for molestation:
http://tinyurl.com/395ndkt
Although of course, a prosecution lawyer is always going to say that. The lawyer says:
He adds:
What he doesn’t comment on is why was Assange’s name published instantly by the public prosecutors?
Oh, Silbersky and Borgström. Hah.
Borgström is a former minister of equality, if I remember correctly. He also defended Thomas Quick, formerly known as the biggest serial killer in swedish history but whos case is now under review.
Regarding the prosecutors publishing Assanges name. They didn’t. They confirmed it, but that isn’t really the same as a press release. Still not good tho.
@Popcorn, Thanks for the highlighting that blog post. Like her “7 steps to legal revenge” post, it is very circumstantial evidence but illuminating all the same. Here is a poorly translated version for those that can’t read it online:
@Ergo, Isn’t “confirming” his name the same as “publishing” it. The effect is the same anyway. It’s against their policy to confirm names instantly anyway because it can jeopardize their own investigation if a wanted criminal finds out through the grapevine that they’re after him/her. They could have replied “No comment.” when asked by Expressen. They certainly have no problem replying “No comment” now on why they confirmed his name to a major newspaper so I don’t see why they had a problem with it then.
admin: I still think there is a big difference between sending out a press release to the world and confirming something that will most likely be in the news in the morning anyway.
I’m not saying it was right, I’m saying there is a difference. It wasn’t they who released Assanges name to begin with.
About Silbersky, I wrote that one wrong. He isn’t famous for defending celebrities as in movie stars. He is in the press a lot cause he defend high profile criminals. In that aspect, Assange made an error in chosing him. If we go on appearances.
Now that this whole no-condom with bunches of women stuff has come out, I think we can all finally be sure what Julian Assange’s long term master plan is.
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/4984/villageofthedamnedkids.jpg
Ok, it looks like this is going to a trial, not be dropped. Silbersky is a celebrity lawyer, that is true. I might fill in about Borgstrom. He is a kind of celebrity too – in the feminazi camp!
It will be a battle of Titans, that trial, believe me!
His partner in the law firm is the former, and possibly future, minister of justice, Thomas Bodstrom. He is also a frontal figure in everything that is anti- sex, anti- freedom and the chairman (?or similar?) of Ecpat in Sweden. Ecpat are rabid anti childporn/prostitution activists, fighting a noble cause, but using very abusive methods, distorting fact, lying and cheating, creating tyranny in small steps at a time. They see child abusive porn where there is none, like japanese cartoons, yes cartoons!!! A man was recently sentenced for having that kind of stuff on his computer, during a custody fight with his ex wife, who falsely claimed he molested their daughter. See the pattern?
These people are the most dangerous risks for future democracy in Sweden. They want to create a society in Sweden that Mielke, the former STASI chief in East Germany would envy. (Mielke: “Um sicher zu sein muss man alles wissen” = To be safe, you must know everything.) They are succeeding, unfortunately, because among other integrity abusive laws, a law (FRA) that was suggested by Bodstrom, has been passed by he present government, although worse. The law gives a government entity, FRA, the right to sift through ALL e-mail that passes the Swedish border! It is a law that has been passed as a “presnt” to the US. Among other reasons, Sweden has a huge amount of refugees from Iraq that the US wants to spy on. Once it is in place, you can bet that there will be a sliding of the purpose, and, because the technolgy exists, it can be used to filter for a whole bunch of things, like politics.
There is a twist to this; the FRA law was opposed only by one party, the tiny Piratpartiet. Yep, the same party that is now hosting WikiLeaks!!!
Gues who gets my vote later this year, when Sweden goes to the polls…
For those of you who don’t know Sweden so well, if you ever go there, take care and learn! You have no idea how sick the Swedish society is becoming. The kiddyporn and sex stuff is just an excuse to dismount the few checks and balances that exists, and introduce an endemic control society, going way past Orwells’ 1984. The US and UK can use terrorism as an excuse for the same, but as there is a conspicuous lack of terorism in Sweden, the peddo card has to be played instead. Because who can speak against? If you do, you must first explain, in vain probably, that you are really not a child molester, just want to remain free in a democratic society. Tough shit, you’ll lose!
I hope the feminazis have stung the wrong rabbit this time and he turns out to be a lion instead, so that perhaps the trend may start to slowly turn around. How the hell else could I ever move back to my home country?
Celsius, call me as soon as the “Feminazis” blitzkrieg Poland.
I also hate the type of over top thought crime prosecution that you discuss, but it also has absolutely nothing to do with this case. In that regard, you are all supposition, no substance. Indeed, your whole post is basically a smear by proxy of AA’s lawyer and, by transitivity, AA herself.
As others have said, thanks Nicholas for a great source of information and comment! Anna and her friend have a lawyer now so we can assume that they are serious about continuing with their “case”. If the condom story is “the only thing” the police report is based on, I would say that Julian Assange will not really be defamed for life but rather “only” made a fool of. But I think the Swedish justice system and Anna have also made fools of themselves more than fools of Julian. How can people take them seriously again? By extension, as far as Anna is concerned, Sweden´s reputation as a country for free love and sophistication in sexual relationships has been deeply damaged. In all cases, points have been won for US cultural hegemony, but maybe just as a coincidence?
I definitely see Assange as a hero and Wikileaks as vital and I do not think I will change my mind. As a woman, ever since I saw Assange on the Amy Goodman Democracy Now Show, I have been worrying about how “he solves the sexual bit” to express it as we do in Sweden. I concluded that he does it through free-love relationships and that makes him extremely vulnerable. This is something that has come into being as a result of the publicity he has received after Wikileaks’ publication of the collateral damage video. Before that he was not in the spotlight so he had more freedom but since then the credibility and the moral reputation of Wikileaks depend on him, so I said to myself, “Get married, Julian, or at least get yourself a steady and visible partner!”
Celsius: There might be problem in Sweden, but its people like you, seeing Orwells ghost everywhere, that makes any kind of intellectual discussion about it impossible. Therefore you are part of the problem.
Pugget, I have seen a ton of the wildest conspiracy theories that the CIA is behind all this. Never believed it.
But if you cannot see the grand scale of this ongoing dismounting of democracy i Sweden that I am trying to describe, it may be because you have too little insight into the Swedish society at present. I gave you a few of the dots, but you have to connect them yourself. I don’t blame you if you can’t, because there all lots more dots out there, but too many for me to describe. Too lazy for that, sorry.
I am not sure this is a masterminded thing by someone, I rather think that it is a result of he sum of a bunch of people’s collective personal ambitions for power and fame.
About the rest of my comment, you are still allowed to have an opinion, if your country allows it. It may be changing in Sweden though. At least there are many opinions considered normal elsewhere that will make you a pariah in Sweden…
Ergo, an American president said something like: “Those who sacrifice freedom for justice deserve neither.”
If you think we need to see more pieces of the puzzle before we realise that democracy is in peril, that’s up to you. I rather be safe than sorry. Freedom and democracy is not won once and for all, it has to be defended all the time.
Its easy to say that if people don’t see the problem you describe, they have less insight in swedish society than you.
For the rest of the commentator, Celsius do not represent a majority of swedish people. What he says is a trumped up view that a minority has, which is probably common in most countries, about how society is progressing towards an undesirable end. In Sweden, the “enemies” are mostly described as feminists.
Celsius: I often use that quote myself. But concerning integrity and public access, not the fight for equality.
@Celsius, I take your point about civil liberties being under attack in Sweden but let’s keep the “feminazi” slurs to a minimum please. For all the recent problems Sweden has with civil liberties, it still has some of strongest protections for freedom of speech in the world (which is why afterall Assange was in Sweden) but I acknowledge this case may be used as a Trojan horse to destroy them. If you want my 2 cents, if you are worried about the way power is being abused in Sweden, then I think you’d be better focusing on the corporate takeover of government and mainstream media in rather than a group of feminists or conservative right-wing zealots offended by Manga cartoons. That’s where the source of the problem lies. But as Pugget says, let’s keep this debate focused on the allegations facing Assange and the circumstances surrounding them please!
@Maisy, Thanks for the comments and I think you’re probably right. Assange is clearly free spirited and doesn’t think there should be any restrictions on freedom of thought or actions. Whether and how this translates into his personal life we don’t know (and is none of our business) but if it is “”free love” then yes, it’s going to make him very vulnerable and pose a problem publicly.
@Ergo, It not only “wasn’t right” for the public prosecutor to confirm his name but it was shooting themselves in the foot! The latest from Aftonbladet is that even the lawyer defending the women can’t believe they did that because it gives the accused a chance to escape from Sweden so that he or she can avoid the arrest warrant:
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article7666480.ab
Would they really be that incompetent with such a high profile target? I also wonder whether Expressen would have gone ahead with the story without confirmation by the public prosecutor? It would have been a massive gamble for them although I suspect trumping Aftonbladet, which was just about to publish its first exclusive Assange written column for them, would have been too much to resist.
One clear result of this that we can say without doubt is that Aftonbladet won’t be publishing Assange’s column – at least until after the trial. It shouldn’t stop WikiLeaks publishing on Swedish servers though – the contracts have already been signed with the Pirate Party and besides, Assange is not WikiLeaks.
Get readt for mass removal of Anna Ardin’s writings from google cache & other stored locations. If anyone want’s to save a copy of anything you had better do it today.
[...] topic of Anna Ardin has brought a sudden surge in hits. Following a few links, I found a better English treatmente, which I recommend above the original half-English/half-Swedish example. The lengthy discussion [...]
I apologize, as this is very OT, but the original quote Celsius and Ergo are discussing above is from Benjamen Franklin (never a President):
“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
It’s a great quote, and I couldn’t agree more.
admin: First, that Silbersky takes advantage of the public opinion and questions how the whole thing was handled is no surprise. It just shows that he knows what he’s doing.
Second, I agree that it was a serious mistake. We have to wait for JO’s investigation for any answers to why – the public prosecutors will most likely not give out any more information then already provided.
Third, a possible trial will be a total media circus with the two lawyers, Borgström and Silbersky. So hopefully thats something we can at least somewhat follow, if not because of the sensitivity it will be a closed trial. Since the charges are relatively minor it might be scheduled pretty soon.
@Celsius
“Ergo, an American president said something like: “Those who sacrifice freedom for justice deserve neither.”
If you think we need to see more pieces of the puzzle before we realise that democracy is in peril, that’s up to you. I rather be safe than sorry. Freedom and democracy is not won once and for all, it has to be defended all the time.”
It was Benjamin Franklin (though never president, the smartest of all the Founding Fathers) who said: “Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
He also said, when asked what type of government the Constitutional Congress had formed, “A Republic, if you can keep it.”
Thomas Jefferson (attributed): “The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.”
You have it correct Celsius. “Democracy” is constantly being eaten away at by right-wing authoritarian forces. Don’t let anyone tell you any different and keep reminding others of this fact. It will not be your fault if they are too dense to see it.
@Ergo
it’s actually the womens lawyer who is critizising how everything has been handled, that police hasn’t contacted Assange etc.
Silbersky has only confirmed that he is gonna represent Assange.
It’s not clear to me if Rättssäkerhetsorganisationen has any formal power, but they have apparently issued another statement with a stronger indictment of the initial prosecutor, accusing her of violating the confidentiality of the investigation. To whit:
“According to the organisation, the prosecutor violated the confidentiality of preliminary investigations by giving the media information about this case, DJ reported.”
http://www.thelocal.se/28556/20100824/
Is this actually new, or just repackaged news from earlier in the day?
I don’t know about Swedish laws, but I have the perception that the way the prosecutor(s) behaved has weakened whatever kind of case may have come out of the whole story.
My point of view isn’t neutral, but the damage done by the publicity will mostly be suffered by the women who reported Assange since the very fast cancellation of the arrest warrant will be noted as a very bad mistake in information handling, despite what the prosecution office says.
I really don’t know if Assange will be damaged or not, it’s my opinion that this fact could be useful in the future, despite the usual rants of pundits who will go where no man has gone before to prove their points about something (e. g. the unrelated Babbin’s babble on Wikileaks in the American Spectator).
Let’s wait and see, anyway, I’m not in a hurry to see if I’m wrong or not. Thanks for all the info, Mr Mead, they have been very valuable to me.
[...] This post was Twitted by arron_shutt [...]
[...] that got out of hand.” The women aren’t named in the NYT piece, but some commenters in the thread accompanying this post believe they’ve identified one of the parties involved. Swedish prosecutors will decide on [...]
@ admin. I use the term feminazi as a shorter form of “rabid-over-the-top-superradical-feminists-with-a-dangerous-agenda” because I want to make a distinction between them and people who are seriously struggling for equality between sexes. If it offends you I will not use it, but maybe you can suggest a good term that makes the distinction I look for?
FYI, Sweden does NOT have strong laws for freedom of speech or expression in the extent you seem to think!!! That is exatly the misunderstanding WikiLeaks fell for and why Assange had to go to Sweden to become a bonafide PUBLISHER according to old fashioned definitions. Internet and blogs are not included in any of the protection of the law. You must have a publishers certificate to enjoy any of the protection the “constitution” (not really a constitution because it is too hollow and inconsistent) allows. He thought, just like you, that anyone who publishes something is protected. NOT! You are not allowed to investigate the source of a newspaper (whistleblower or whatever), BUT that does not apply to any media or person that has no publishers certificate. Assange found that out and thought he better get one.
You also don’t seem to understand the role of the femin****. It is not gender equality that is the goal. It is just apparent struggle for it that is the tool. Draconic laws are passed using pedofiles as an excuse, because of the lack of terroists.
With a free and uncensored internet, I worry very little about what happens with mainstream media, which is already taken over by corporations. Government is different. That is where the fight is, you are right.
The way this connects to Assange is that Piratpartiet is allied with him, and WikiLeaks is an important part of the protection against dismounting democracy. Not just in Sweden, clearly. The work WL has done serves to undermine the undemocratic forces in the US that feed off the wars, with money going from taxpayers’ pockets, via the military industry, into the pockets of the rulers, because the own it all. (Cheney, etc.) If you think that is OT, I will not argue any more. It is your blog, you rule.
@ Pugget, thanks for clarifying that quote!
@ ergo. I just love this one: “For the rest of the commentator, Celsius do not represent a majority of swedish people.” You are so absolutely right! and that is exactly the problem. If the majority would look up from their facebookpages, soap operas, celebrity scandal stories and all the other BS that is constantly on peoples minds, things would not be so bad. But you know, the only reasons most people will care about this story with Assange is because it is about a celebrity and sex. They will not care much what he is trying to achieve or why.
And what is to say that because I do not belong to the majority , I must be wrong? You seem to imply that I am some kind of freak or nutcase because I say something different from mainstream?
The dictatorship of the majority is why homosexuals, muslims, jews, gypsies, and so on, have suffered throughout history.
@ blink. Thanks! For the encouragement and the other quotes. Although I have nothing to admire in the foreign policy of the United States at present, the US does have the most brilliant constitution in the world. I wish a good deal of it could be applied in Sweden one day.
@ Pugget. Rättssäkerhetsorganisationen is a loose network of people who belive they have been treated unfairly by the judicial system. It is quite remarkable that they manage to make it into the news like this, because it is a pretty insignificant organisation. Certainly without any form of formal power whatsoever.
It was formed by a former record company owner (or such?) who was sentenced for, I think, nine counts of rape of young starlets who wanted record contracts (oh, the groupie thing, it is an old one) which he denied and still struggles to be vindicated for, although he has already done the prison term. His life destroyed, oh well, it is sweden after all.
Anna Sjödin is the other founder. She was the chairman of SSU, the social democratic party’s youth organisation and was fired after a brawl in a bar where she was accused of assault of the guards in the door (who in Sweden are licensed and have similar to a policeman’s authority at the site where they work). Her political carreer was destroyed completely after that, of course.
JO, Justitieombudsmannen, is the official authority to whom you complain if you feel wrongly treated by the judicial system, and it was apparently through JO that RO made their complaint.
@ Alberto G.: Sweden does not have the strong formal protection that the US has, for example. In my opinion at least. The first thing a lawyer checks for in the US is if formalia has been followed. If not, that will be the primary point of attack.
In this case, they will “interpret” things to their advantage and right now the whole judicial system has suffered a major loss of face. Down to the bone!
So whether or not they have a strong or even valid case at all against JA, they must follow through with it, to save the very little respect they may still have. They claim that everything is following normal procedures, just the way they always do things and no mistakes at all have been made.
To make that even somewhat believable, they must charge JA for _something_ at least. If not, they will look mega stupid. Everyone can see how hollow it all is!
So, sorry for JA, he has become the enemy of the whole judicial system in Sweden now. Both sides, JA by hiring a high profile defender, and especially the prosecutors, are playing up their hand, making it look as solid as they can. The feather is turning into a flippin’ turkey!
Without the media attention, this would have followed a totally different route. It remains to see who gains from the media hype in the end though…
[...] that got out of hand.” The women aren’t named in the NYT piece, but some commenters in the thread accompanying this post believe they’ve identified one of the parties involved. Swedish prosecutors will decide on [...]
It seems like Anna has been thinking of scenarios like this before… The whole story is rather bizarre. (Sorry for Google translation.)
Anna Ardin blog on blogspot:
http://annaardin.blogspot.com/2006/06/vldtkt_01.html
Heading Rape?
The following story is set in a counterfactual, but not very unreasonable, a scenario that we discussed today, but did not reach an answer to:
Woman: You want to come home
Man, why not
… [Drinking tea]
Female: come over to this side
[Sexual act begins]
The man is alternately holding the woman’s arms, trying to force down the woman’s head against his penis, penetrating too hard, the woman wants to stop when she is no longer interested to continue. She stops to respond and eventually try to push him away from the body, but says nothing, or perhaps partly out of fear that make the man who already displays a more aggressive behavior than angry.
It is quite obvious that something is wrong, at some sort of equal sex, or at least with some kind of communication is established between the two parties to recognize a man in that position that he should continue, but he goes on because he has the power to do so, or because he has a view on women who tells him that it is ok she was on it at the time, he listened to her, or because he reads the law and know that he never in hell will be able to be judged.
Can someone tell me how this case is classified?
Had he been able to be judged if he recognized the above?
Is there anything at all, when a man convicted of rape despite the fact that the woman started to have sex voluntarily?
Labels: Feminism
posted by Anna @ 23:21 Bernardin
Celsius, the fact that Sweden doesn’t have the strong formal protection of the US is completely indifferent to me. I really couldn’t care less.
My opinion isn’t based on formal facts, but on what lawyers in the judicial systems I know would consider a good starting point for their defense, and the very fast retraction of an arrest warrant is a very good starting point everywhere.
The lawyers of the women know it very well, that’s why they protested for the handling. They are the ones that will have to go in a tribunal. They know much better than me and you what damages the interests of their customers.
This quote which first appears in the NYT at http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/24/world/europe/24wikileaks.html “What I can say is that I have never, in Sweden or any other country, had sex with someone in a way that did not build on total consent from both sides” seems rather notable in its vagueness.
Was the Assange interview in Aftonbladet not originally conducted in English? Only a Swedish version has been published, afaik, here: http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article7654862.ab It quotes him saying “Det jag kan säga är att jag aldrig, vare sig i Sverige eller i något annat land, haft sex med någon på ett sätt som inte byggt på total frivillighet från båda sidor.”
Google translates that to “What I can say is that I never, either in Sweden or in any other country, had sex with someone in a way that is not built on total voluntary from both sides.”
The translation here at http://nicholasmead.com/2010/08/21/how-to-smear-a-hero/ sounds significantly less vague: “What I can say is that I have never, either in Sweden or in any other country, had sex with someone that they haven’t consented to” is significantly less vague.
Can any native Swedish speakers say here which translation is more accurate? And does anyone know if Assange is fluent enough is Swedish that the interview would have been conducted in it?
It seems to me that it is rather irresponsible of the NYT to publish a translation from Swedish (which itself is possibly a translation from English?) as if it is a direct quote!
@Concerns:
“Det jag kan säga är att jag aldrig, vare sig i Sverige eller i något annat land, haft sex med någon på ett sätt som inte byggt på total frivillighet från båda sidor.”
First translation works. “… in Sweden or in any country, have had sex with anyone in a way that wasn’t built on (based on) total voluntary (consent) from both sides”
The second translation sums it up, I guess. Assange was deliberately vague in the aftonbladet-article, ’cause he didn’t know (or had not confirmed) the identity of his accusors. I don’t think he knows swedish, so its probably translated from english.
Addition: A thought – when Assange is quoted saying “total frivillighet” this is later re-translated as “consent”. The swedish word for “consent” would be “samtycke”.
“Frivillighet” kinda implies willing participation, not just consent (Consent without willingness might be cause for a charge of molestation, while sex with neither consent or willingness would be rape). So its possible that his original wording was less vague. It is also possible that those who wrote the article translated “consent” into “frivillighet”.
This is pure conjecture, ofc.
NEWSFLASH: Both women were just offended because JA wanted to check his emails all the time, so they filed those claims.
/back to hide under my rock.
//too soon?
http://www.google.se/search?aq=f&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=Sofia+Wil%C3%A9n
It is the “based on” part of that double-translated quote that concerns me, particularly re: Pelle’s quote from AA’s blog above.
Latest news from Flashback in Sweden
Nr 2 – Ms W – Sofia Wilén
Now we are waiting for the confirmation or something else.
@Alberto G, You say: “the damage done by the publicity will mostly be suffered by the women who reported Assange”
The most damage will surely to Assange whatever happens although the Swedish public prosecution system has also suffered from the way it has been handled. It is quite likely that whether this was a plot or has become one, similar accusations may be made against Assange in the future by those that want to discredit him.
@Celsius, I’m not offended by the word “feminazi” but feminists reading this might be. You have to be careful when using the nazi word because it’s very inflammatory. Perhaps “radical feminists” will suffice? Thanks for clarifying the freedom of speech situation in Sweden – I guess it’s more accurate to say that Sweden has freedom of speech protection laws if you apply for them. I have no problem with you expressing political views relating to Assange and WikiLeaks either by the way – I’m not sure where you got that impression and for the most part I agree with your outlook. As long as the comments relate to Assange, WikiLeaks and don’t contain the word “feminazi” you’re free to write what you like!
As regards your thoughts on applying the “brilliance” of the American constitution in Sweden, I’m sure blink wishes the powerful would start applying in America first! 
You say: “Rättssäkerhetsorganisationen is a loose network of people who belive they have been treated unfairly by the judicial system. It is quite remarkable that they manage to make it into the news like this, because it is a pretty insignificant organization.”
Maybe it’s as a rather lame attempt to restore some credibility to the public prosecution system and being used as a fig leaf by media and prosecutors to take the heat off some of the criticism they’ve been getting? Thanks for the detailed insight into the organization by the way.
@Pelle, thanks but that blog post has already been highlighted here:
http://nicholasmead.com/2010/08/21/how-to-smear-a-hero/#comment-1701
@Alberto, the way the women reported Assange is also very odd. They claimed that they didn’t want to file an official rape report but just wanted “advice”. However, as I understand, by law the police have to make a report of rape allegations and thus the wheels started in motion. What it means though I think is that if the charges were dropped, the women couldn’t be charged with wasting police time because they only asked for “advice”.
@Concerns, I presume the interview Assange did was in English but the paper only published the Swedish version. I don’t really see your confusion though – both the translations you quote mean pretty much the same thing.
kudos for this one, indeed…
I was majorly annoyed by the fact how hard it was to get any reliable facts on this after initial headlines broke. OK, you don’t have them all either, since apparently they are trickling down to the public rather slow, but hell, what a follow up.
@ admin, appreciate the way you kept discussion in check without seriously stamping on anything – thankfully this allows for following both facts AND opinions and that’s a good thing imho
Nicholas (I hope you don’t mind if I refer to you informally), similar accusations will be made in the future, and they will be rejected as this one.
I’m not taking sides, but we’re living in a time that favours much more debate than what was possible in the past. In that respect, I want to be optimistic. I have to. I know I have an idealistic and probably idyllic stance, but so far I have not been delusional. Let’s wait and see.
The oddity of the circumstances which have led to Assange’s indictment have been noted, and probably will be noted not only by me. That’s why I maintain that a judge who knows what he’s doing would deliberate in a certain way, and not the other way. Anyway, this is – once again – a speculation, based on the assumption that the charges of molestation won’t be dropped, and, at the moment, nobody can be sure about that, not even the prosecutors.
Can any Swedish speakers help me out with this news report? The Google translation is hideous.
http://www.newzglobe.com/sv/artikel/20100823/s-kvinna-anmalde-wikileaks-grundare
Something about “…Anna Bernardin being “on sick leave after the incident.”
This thread is great. I like the good references.
This is really funny!
http://rebellabloggen.wordpress.com/
http://translate.google.se/#sv|en|
“Rebellor” (Down to the right)
* Anna Ardin…
* Other names
From the rebellabloggen.wordpress.com:
But the truth can be far much easier than the CIA conspiracies, sexfällor or a feminist conspiracy to destroy all men. **** It can be something as simple as two women who wanted to find out if it was possible to force anyone to test themselves for sexually transmitted diseases.****
Can someone translate this part more clearly that google translate:
“Och om poliser som gjorde sitt jobb och såg något brottsligt i kvinnornas berättelse om en sexpartner som struntade i deras överenskommelse om skyddat sex och lät bli att använda kondom utan deras vetskap eller samtycke.”
Google translate from their blog state:
“And if police officers did their jobs and saw anything wrong in the women’s story of a sexual partner who ignored their agreement on protected sex and he did not use condoms without their knowledge or consent.”
So are the girls at the Rebel blog saying that Julian did not use condoms WITHOUT the females knowledge?
I kind of find that hard to believe that a women would just ignore the part where the guy puts on a condom before they go at it. (Of course there are other rumors that he took it off during sex… are they saying he did this without the woman’s knowledge?, or did he take off the condom & give the girls a money shot in the face?)
Celsius
“@ blink. Thanks! For the encouragement and the other quotes. Although I have nothing to admire in the foreign policy of the United States at present, the US does have the most brilliant constitution in the world. I wish a good deal of it could be applied in Sweden one day.”
I confess that I almost broke down and wept at your first post (the first one I noticed anyway – the one with the attempt at quoting Franklin). To see a “foreigner” quoting that made me both proud and particularly sad. Many, if not most, American left-libertarians regard Scandinavia, on the whole, to be models of social-democracy. We know there are flaws obviously but we know that you all are in a damn site better place than we are. You still have the ability to be “ever vigilant” and have it mean something. Our time is passed. The United States is a gutted shell. We have traded everything that was good about us – our core constitutional values and rule-of-law, our courage, our tolerance, etc. for reasons of fear, loathing, American Idol and Wal-Mart. Americans are literally some of the dumbest, most ignorant and fearful people on the planet and we are a danger to ourselves and everyone else as a result.
If you are truly interested in what the American people have allowed to take root, read and understand the books “The Shock Doctrine” by Naomi Klein and “Democracy Incorporated: Managed Democracy and the Specter of Inverted Totalitarianism” by Sheldon S. Woldin.
http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine
http://press.princeton.edu/titles/8606.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
The United States of America is a lost cause. Don’t let the same happen to you.
I just want to point out that speculating about what happened in their private sexual activities is enormously distasteful for all parties involved. From my point of view as someone whose complaints to police went nowhere, this whole episode is very upsettng.
This forum is public and more people than you realise are following this thread. So I simply request that a little more sensitivity to individual’s boundaries be shown.
@Anonymous – Had it been kept out of the paper no one would know or be talking about it until the police had finished their job.
Julian has both been accused of having consensual sex with both of the women, AND raping them at the same time.
Some of the women who Anna knows are insisting she should be believed. Several people are insisting that Julian should be believed.
As distressing as this may be to you, no one is going to believe anyone until all of the facts come out since the accusations to date don’t make any sense.
The case is of international interest & it isn’t going to go away one way or another just on one person’s say so. This is what happens when you fuck famous people & it doesn’t turn out well.
From one of the few remaining, well regarded American journalists:
Scott Horton
http://harpers.org/archive/2010/08/hbc-90007522
“As I wrote in “WikiLeaks: The National-Security State Strikes Back,”
http://www.harpers.org/archive/2010/08/hbc-90007466
a highly classified Army Counterintelligence Center 32-page memorandum noted that to eliminate the threat presented by WikiLeaks, the United States would have to strike not simply servers and databases, but against the individuals who were critical to the operation of WikiLeaks. It repeatedly identifies Assange as a target, describes the leaks as criminal acts and advocates “successful prosecutions” to “destroy the center of gravity” of WikiLeaks. The suspicions raised by Assange are thus hardly unwarranted—they match the Pentagon’s own plan to take WikiLeaks out of action. However, there is as yet no direct evidence for the claim that the accusations leveled at Assange were the work of some intelligence service, and even if there were, Assange has plenty of governments anxious to shut him down aside from the United States. But as this incident makes clear, the war on WikiLeaks will be fought with unconventional tools and those following the story are advised to accept nothing at face value.”
@admin
The last line in the block I quoted is what I meant when I said everyone should be working from the assumption that, when it comes to anything negative attributed to Assange and WikiLeaks, the U.S. Government and its intelligence services are involved. They are not “persons” and thus not deserving of “innocent until proven guilty.” Given their history, they are not deserving of the benefit of the doubt at all. If it turns out they are not involved in this particular instance then fine but dismissing them as suspects too early is a decidedly stupid thing to do.
PS. Does the comments section allow for html code? I am going to test it….
It would be nice to be able to use such code as bold, italics,
, quote, etc.
As one of the international lurkers, I wanted to thank admin and everyone here for this most reasonable discussion, and for all the good references.
I am a supporter of WikiLeaks and I am a feminist. It seems to me very wrong that this story, whatever the truth is, landed in the lap of the law. I am sorry to see people forced into public confessionals that none of them foresaw but that have now apparently just overtaken them all.
blink, you bring a tear to my eye. I’m writing from Canada, where we used to think that we were still resisting the fear and loathing more easily than you could. That has changed, as you may know. North America is becoming a no-go zone for real believers in democracy, which is sad and frightening sometimes, but it is a real help to me to read Americans who know and are resisting the darkness.
I am curious as to if anyone has any information about Sofia Wilén and whether or not she is the “Ms W” mentioned in the press. I can find precious little about her. Thanks.
Great discussion BTW.
http://twitter.com/LionelBarrymore
Input the words: “Wikileaks rape” into Google and you get over 13 million hits!
Yet not one peep about who the second women accuser is.
Updates anyone??
@Vincible, It seems that Google translates “Ardin” and “Bernadin” for some reason. The article you refer to says that The Christian Brotherhood Movement that AA works for told them that she was “on sick leave”.
@Pelle, It seems to be a feminist blog associated to the social democrats that AA writes for criticizing those who are defending Assange against the allegations or at least, criticizing those who think Assange is an angel and can do no wrong. Note that the link for AA under “Rebellor” takes you to her blog which seems to be online again…
@Popcorn, I’m not quite sure what to make of that either. It sounds like they are suggesting that maybe the allegations were just a case of two women trying to see if they could force a man to take an test for sexually transmitted diseases?? And then suggests that women told the police they either didn’t consent to sex without a condom or didn’t know that he wasn’t wearing one. It would require someone Swedish to correctly translate that part. I notice that one of the commenters asks if Anna wrote the post but Sara Gunnerud says it was she that wrote it and no-one else.
@anonymous, I absolutely agree with you and the speculation on bedroom activities is an unfortunate result of the rather confusing way the women reported the allegations and the subsequent way they have been handled by the prosecutor who I suspect were also confused. Combined with the fact that there is a lot of concern by Assange’s supporters that he has been setup by shady forces, the scrutiny on exactly what actually happened is very intense. You say that your complaints went nowhere and find this very upsetting which is regrettable. Are you referring to a similar case you were involved in because this situation seems to be unprecedented in Sweden?
@Popcorn again, No one knows if it was the women themselves that tipped-off Expressen so it’s not fair to imply at this stage that they’re being punished for something they brought on themselves or deliberately caused. It could just be a case of a terrible misunderstanding between Assange and the women that’s been inflamed by poor handling by the prosecution service. I understand though that the latest blog post by AA supporters highlighted by Pelle on the “Rebellablogen” makes things sound even more confusing though especially the bits about the allegations may have been some kind of test to see if they could get Assange tested for sexual diseases or that the women simply didn’t know he wasn’t wearing a condom. Hopefully someone can offer a more precise Swedish translation but until then, we should respect anonymous’s wishes that people speculate what it means with a little more consideration although I know it’s hard when it comes to bedroom activities. And if you don’t want to comply with that for the women’s sake, then maybe for Assange’s sake as I can’t imagine it’s much fun for him to have his bedroom antics too crudely speculated on, even if it is done with an aim of trying to ascertain whether he has been setup.
@blink, Some good book recommendations and appeals to Swede’s not let their country go the way of America but let’s try to keep on topic as much as possible. I’m not suggesting by the way that a CIA plot is ruled out – all I’m suggesting is that people take a rational look at the evidence and sequence of events, put pre-conceived ideas and prejudices aside, and make their own mind-up. PS Yes comments allows for html code
@skdadl, thanks for the comments.
@Lionelle there’s no further information on that yet as far as I know.
It is indeed sad and frightening. As America has descended, those of us on the left have always been able to at least look Northward for sanity. As you say, that sanity appears to be losing ground. Perhaps it is losing ground everywhere. Celsius has pointed out that, even in Sweden, certain forces are forming their attacks on “democracy.”
————————-
For those interested, another American worth taking the time to read regularly:
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/08/24/wikileaks/index.html
@Lionelle
Sofia Wilén looks like a pretty good solid match. She has been referred to as Ms. W in papers much as Ms. A is Anna Ardin.
The NYTimes stated that she is an artist in her mid 20′s.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/24/world/europe/24wikileaks.html?_r=1
That is also a match for Sofia Wilén who is 26 (according to some of the profiles she has set up on the internet). She has also recently taken down her artist website.
At this point I would be surprised if it was not her.
@Popcorn
All the took down was the root index page. The rest of the site is still there. And it’s not a lot.
She might seem a good match but there’s no documented link. None. AA is different as her boss bloopered out the connection to a Swedish news site the other day. Even there a second (or more) reference would be nice.
I don’t trust any of them until I can see the same type of raw data WL provides.
Right now there is so much nonsense and BS spreading – mainly by the MSM who have editors horny for hits for the advertisers – that I’d guesstimate about 99% is worthless. Flashback speculate – but they admit it. Both the Guardian and the NYTimes are there at Flashback, with their Google Translate windows, taking stuff away, claiming it as their own, and not going any further.
I just want to get away. The Mediocre have taken over the world. Two weeks ago we were so proud of our country again. For the first time in a long time. Now we’re disgusted again.
Admin,
In my case the incident, due to my own actions, came out on the internet. There was much speculation about what happened and if I was making it up for attention. The _more_ details given the _worse_ it got which is the opposite to what happens in a lot of cases of intrigue. Rape is such a touchy subject witih so many people that they have too much invested in believing one side or the other and will fight tooth and nail to be victorious over their enemies irrespective of the damage they do even to their own side.
It follows this pattern every time. Not only are the boundaries being cross on the part of the women, but on Julian’s as well. You are discussing the most intimate and private activities of three individuals, not powerful corporations or governments. In this case transparency is damaging and this is actually a point that Assange himself has recently argued in his activist career.
Why not leave what happened behind closed doors as an intimacy black box. Something happened, we don’t know what and we can’t know what. The _court_ has a right to know but we really don’t until it goes to court, if indeed it ever does.
That being said, I think it is possible to discuss all other circumstances of the case to test the likelihood of corruption or ulterior motives without violating 3 people’s right to privacy in their sexual affairs.
If it is indeed true that the women were simply making enquiries at the police station and got caught up in an unstoppable legal process then perhaps they unwittingly dropped a scandal into the laps of some anti-Wikileaks cops who got far too excited by the story, called a reporter, and got their favourite junior prosecutor to join in.
@Popcorn I don’t expect anything to change because of what one anon commenter says but I would certainly hope that it would be considered seriously.
Another point of similarity is that
@Rick – You are right to have a healthy degree of skepticism about the information coming out. Especially when it comes to possibly mistakingly identifying someone who very well may be uninvolved.
The only place I’ve seen a source for the condom story is Flashback. Even the Guardian claim it’s in the Aftonbladet interview but *it’s not*. People making up stuff like this…
Another chap and myself caught CNN spamming at Twitter earlier this evening. Nearly 100 people retweeted an incorrectly titled tweet from CNN that actually led to a completely different article. Yet 100 people retweeted – they didn’t even read it.
@Anonymous – It’s sort of off topic, but I suspect that most police departments do not provide women with good advice on how to deal with potential publicity that can come out. As in your instance, you stated that it leaked out from you.
It’s kind of a difficult subject as victims of assault need to talk to friends and their support network. But once that happens, people just can’t be trusted to keep their mouths shut. Friends tell friends and then it’s all over the place.
Private women’s support groups would be a good potential network where an assault victim should be able to get support without information leaks.
@Popcorn: we went with the name Anna Ardin yesterday. On one source only. That was borderline. Most of the junk coming out of the MSM right now has no sources at all. Perhaps Flashback but that’s that.
I was involved in the hunt for ILOVEYOU ten years ago. That too went nuts with stories all over the place. (Fortunately I was neighbours with the guy who found the source.)
I think the best policy this time is to kick back, watch the show, hope for the best, and not get too involved.
Oh – one more thing: fight the FUD of course.
Cheers.
[...] information concerning Assange-gate have been translated to english by Nicholas John Mead. Another blog about the twists and turns concerning Assange have translation to several [...]
It’s articles like the one above (http://bit.ly/9yQLan) that give you vertigo to the point you say like Andrew Sinclair in Love Actually:
‘Enough. Enough already.’
‘So it is now confirmed by Swedish police that Anna Ardin is one of the women making the allegations.’
It is? Then another crime has been committed by the authorities.
‘I always thought this is a very strange way to react to a “rape”.’
Yep. But Sweden’s definition? They had a campaign a few years back trying to teach women they could have been raped without knowing it.
‘There have been suggestions on here that it could be something like that. There is sketchy evidence that AA has a history’
She wears her character on her sleeve. She’s no mystery – not for someone from Sweden. But she’s admittedly scary and repulsive. Just not mysterious.
AA’s group believe that one way they can transform the world (to their liking) is to attack men by bringing false charges of rape. Not that this is connected to the current story, but still and all – that’s the mentality. Men are bad, heterosexual sex is an attack, penetration is a violation of the woman, only lesbian sex shows mutual respect, etc. These views are not hard to find – especially on Södermalm in Stockholm.
I like this board. Good people.
The world really, really needs WikiLeaks—but not necessarily Julian Assange. He may be charismatic, brilliant and eloquent, but his recent behavior and history are neon signs pointing to a deeply troubled person. This story—and unfortunately the discussions around it— are getting nastier by the minute. CIA/Pentagon involvement or not, it’s becoming increasingly obvious that Assange’s actions were at the very least irresponsible and naïve, and at worst criminal. So I say let’s move on. Let’s stop hero-worshiping a very flawed human being and focus instead on making sure that the organization he founded survives.
I know it sounds outrageous that women and girls could be raped without knowing it but it is actually true. Some women are so used to forgetting or putting aside their own needs to make way for what others want of them that they don’t realise that their sense of boundaries have been completely erroded by for example, an abusive family, partner, or social set. I have seen it happen myself and felt the pressure of it too when I made friends with the wrong people. I was strong enough to walk away but I know of women who have been convinced by their rapist that they were to blame because they didn’t let him in the front door. The blame always goes back on the victim. Always. And he or she is left wondering “WTF is wrong with me?” and “I must be a very bad person”.
This is a large part of what makes an accusation of rape against a good and innocent person so powerful. It is highly _shaming_ and shame has the effect of making people instantly close up and withdraw which also makes them look more guilty. A perceptive and thoughtful man like Assange would know that and unfortunately those very qualities snowball the shaming effect.
Putting it out in the open like this, magnifies the effect.
By discussing intimate moments of high subjectivity such as sexual encounters, we are _contributing_ to the shaming process! Is that not part of the FUD (fear uncertainty and doubt)?
Bytheway her blog is up again: http://ardin.se/
* sorry I meant to type “because she let him in the front door”.
@bon_fim – I am not ready to hang Julian Assange out to dry without the facts. Just as we should not hang the Anna Adrin nor the other women out to dry without the facts.
Now this story is really going to start seriously blowing up as bigger more powerful agencies and groups pile in with their own agendas to take advantage of the situation.
The Pentagon has already been tweeting about this story since it first broke. Feminist groups are piling on to push their agendas. It sounds like a legal abuse organization has jumped on board bashing the prosecutors. Anna now has some bigwig feminist lawyer. Julian now has some celebrity lawyer looking for the publicity & limelight. Wikileaks fans may be split between pure Julian fanboys & those who just want to know the truth. Then you have all the tin-foil conspiracy theorists jumping on board.
What was starting to look like a very grey situation, is going to be pushed (along with the people involved) into very polar directions to support their agendas.
@Popcorn
You’ve hit the nail on the head.
[...] Assange’s travel around the country; in addition to arranging the Stockholm event, she reportedly tried to arrange places for Assange to stay through her Twitter account (she has apparently since deleted the tweets and has locked her [...]
[...] that got out of hand.” The women aren’t named in the NYT piece, but some commenters in the thread accompanying this post believe they’ve identified one of the parties involved. Swedish prosecutors will decide on [...]
bon_fim said “The world really, really needs WikiLeaks—but not necessarily Julian Assange.”
Wikileaks reached to the current successful direction thanks to the stewardship of JA. If someone wants to derail Wikileaks, they would simply take away one by one the leaders and core contributors.
What we should say is that it is utterly suspicious to have this whole situation, and we reserve any judgment until after this clears up.
Popcorn: Sofia Wilén did not ‘fully’ take down her website.
She removed the ‘index.html’ file from the website, but the rest of the links and photographs are still there.
1. Google for ‘Sofia Wilén’, then click on the ‘Cached’ link under her website.
2. The links work, including the page to her hotmail e-mail address.
[...] that got out of hand.” The women aren’t named in the NYT piece, but some commenters in the thread accompanying this post believe they’ve identified one of the parties involved. Swedish prosecutors will decide on [...]
@Anonymous, thanks for sharing the story. I agree that the court has a right to know what happened although I think with many people thinking Assange has been setup by powerful interests, they don’t trust the courts to deliver justice and have done their own investigations. Since the bizarre way the crimes were reported are linked to bedroom activities, it’s those that have come under most scrutiny to see if they stand-up. You say that: “I know it sounds outrageous that women and girls could be raped without knowing it but it is actually true.” If that is true, I can’t imagine Assange had the time to “emotionally breakdown” the girls before the events took place. I think what you’re suggesting is that Assange maybe “took advantage” of two emotionally “vulnerable” and “submissive” women? But in view of AA’s apparently ardent feminist stance, does she really seem like that type of woman? Thanks for the blog link – it had already been noted it was up and running in an earlier comment although strangely the CV, Photos and Thesis sections have been removed….
@Rick, Yes I think the first paper that mentioned condoms was The Guardian and I think they used the vague terms, “sources close to the girl say”. By the way, can you elaborate on your claim that “Sweden had a campaign a few years back trying to teach women they could have been raped without knowing it?”
@bon_fim, I’m not sure we can conclude Assange’s “recent behavior and history are neon signs pointing to a deeply troubled person.” First we don’t know precisely what his actions were during what happened, secondly, can you expand on his “troubling” history?
LOL, calling the two women “vulnerable” and “submissive” is really funny! From what I can see of their behaviour in media and the blog writing of one of them I would hardly call them that! Resourceful and assertive would be more fitting. If the ID is accurate.
But i do see one vulnerability showing through their armour, and that is jealousy. I speculate, yes, but psycholically I think that is what it boils down to. When they found that they had been in bed with the same guy they were jealous. But instead of butting heads with each other, they decided to go after him instead, using the standard weapon of Swedish feminists – a sexually related court case. They have rehearsed it in their chats long ago, for (/¤(/(#)/%& sake!
And please forget Pentagon and CIA! No way, IMHO! These chicks have a totally different agenda.
the link somebody provided to Sofia Wilen’s homepage via cache doesn’t seem to work anymore. I have no experience in the technical aspects, but is it “normal” that the cache vanishes this quickly, too?
could somebody perhaps summarize again what kind of info is out on the second accuser? and was there ANY mentioning of HOW theses two woman met, specifically on who of the two approached whom FIRST?
I find it disturbingly odd how there is such a mass of info on the web about AA – all of which can easily be read as pointing to some feminist fanatic going overboard (I’m not saying that myself – just trying to summ up how many people and commentators take this apparently) while at the same time there is as good as nothing on this other woman to be found.
Phrasing some rather paranoid and TOTALLY FACTLESS thoughts: wouldn’t it be VERY convenient for any party involved in the conspiratory angle that AA’s biography and ideology shines out so brightly – thus working to weaken any suspicions of a set-up by other parties?!
@admin: ‘@Rick, Yes I think the first paper that mentioned condoms was The Guardian and I think they used the vague terms, “sources close to the girl say”.’
Then I put this to you: how could they have reached these sources? What makes any of us think the Guardian could have got these sources to speak out? IMHO they’ve been surfing @ Flashback with Google Translate or the equivalent.
@tg: ‘is it “normal” that the cache vanishes this quickly’
I’d assume for now Google caches are beyond the reach of citizens of Sweden or even members of the cabinet.
@tg: ‘wouldn’t it be VERY convenient for any party involved in the conspiratory angle’
I think you perhaps haven’t thought through that properly.
@bluemouse: ‘She removed the ‘index.html’ file from the website’
I think I already pointed this out earlier in this thread.
@Celsuis: who called these women vulnerable and submissive? LOL Could that be their solicitor? For they’re quite the opposite – and I don’t think your new adjectives do them justice. At least not the one. She’s more like Arnold’s love child in Terminator XIX.
@admin: ‘@bon_fim, I’m not sure we can conclude Assange’s “recent behavior and history are neon signs pointing to a deeply troubled person.”‘
OMG WTF LOL who said that? That’s funny.
@admin: ‘AA’s apparently ardent feminist stance’ Ardent is a fantastic word. But given the evidence, that description is like saying a female Bengal tiger has long fingernails.
The latest news is that the decision whether to press charges has been delayed again until tomorrow.
We can only assume that this is either because the charges are so dubious that there’s no clear legal precedent or that the decision has already been made to drop the charges but to save the reputation of the public prosecution service because of all the fuss its caused, they’re dragging it out to make it look like it was a very close call and a lot of investigation has being going on over the past few days to sort it all out.
@Rick, I used the word “ardent” feminist to describe her to try and find a diplomatic middle ground between other words that have been used to describe her such as “feminazi” and “Arnold’s love child in Terminator XIX” as some feminist readers on here have been understandably offended by it. As regards The Guardian’s sources, it wouldn’t surprise me although surely they’re aware they are taking a big risk by doing so.
@bluemouse, Nothing has been removed from Google.
FLASH: Finné has spoken.
http://bit.ly/cEUm4L
1. The ‘other girl’s’ story is fully dismissed. She was the one accusing Assange of outright rape; Finné finds Assange did nothing wrong at all.
2. It’s ‘Madame Terminator’ who first said the offered her story only to support the other girl who is pushing forward. The name of the alleged crime hasn’t been named.
3. They say they now want to interview Assange.
This poor Ardin isn’t going to want her laundry hung in public.
Seems to be so many exceptional flaws and unbelievable errors by the Swedish prosecution authorities, even though they seem to be implying ‘normality’ here.
A man can apparently be accused of rape, named, and then the charges withdrawn, but might be re-instated, – is an example of incompetence we might expect from the Pentagon but not Sweden. One would expect more sense from a pantomime.
http://goo.gl/OCCN
Thanks for the update anonymous. I guess we can say half a decision has been made then.
A final decision will be made when they’ve finally spoken to Assange. After all this time, it will be his first chance to put his version of events across to prosecutors.
I think it’s pretty easy to see what’s going to happen now – unless Langley attempt a kidnapping. (And no, there’s no extradition treaty what I know, so don’t speculate about that. It’d have to be a good old frat boy kidnapping.)
This is all going to be down to a girl who thinks everybody else on the planet has a warped perspective. From a purely clinical POV, this is the subtle but dangerous between neurosis (where you’re aware you’re not perfect) and psychosis (where you’re not).
This could be 1) low key; 2) fun; and 3) really fugly for the girl. I don’t think Assange has much to fear any longer but they still might try ‘dirty tricks’.
http://svtplay.se/v/2118877/seminarium_med_wikileaks_grundare
For anyone interested in both WikiLeaks and this case, the SVT link above provided by Rick is a very interesting presentation by Assange.
He is speaking as a guest of the Christian Brotherhood political party and giving a presentation on WikiLeaks on the 14th August literally hours before one of the first incidents is alleged to have happened. Incidentally, AA was his press secretary during this time and can be seen sat to the right of the screen at the front. Seems to have some major technical problems are the beginning of the presentation too.
Julian Assange should get married? Those types of sell out ideas are not liberating, and , I find, reactionary. As in, he needs to cool it and be conventional? Yuck. Wow. No wonder nothing changes for the better.
and bon- deeply troubled? How easily you are manipulated. Assange is (still) a hero, intelligent and innovative, how quickly you jump ship, especially when the wind is blowing the wrong way in this media circus.
@Rick, that’s actually an old story from 4th August. Outrageous though:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/7925646/US-congressman-says-Bradley-Manning-should-be-executed.html
http://bit.ly/dptyVT
Silbersky is good with words. He’s written detective novels on the side.
‘Du milde tid’ – I can’t translate that LOL but it’s not good for the prosecutor’s office. He’s exasperated, one might say.
‘This is a scandal. He’s been stigmatised all over the world as a rapist and now it boils down to a misdemeanour with a possible fine when a competent prosecutor gets to review the case.’
PS. You’d think that people in the country where English as a 2nd tongue is spoken second best in Europe (after Holland IMHO) could do better with their ‘press releases’ at the prosecutor’s website. Then again I’m painfully aware how they ‘think’ they can speak and write English. Oh well.
Rick
“PS. You’d think that people in the country where English as a 2nd tongue is spoken second best in Europe (after Holland IMHO) could do better with their ‘press releases’ at the prosecutor’s website. Then again I’m painfully aware how they ‘think’ they can speak and write English. Oh well.”
What do you exactly mean with that??? Why don´t you translate from swedish to english yourself?
Chefsåklagare Eva Finné har givit utredare i uppdrag att förhöra Assange med anledning av misstanken om ofredande.
– Jag vet inte när det kommer att ske, säger Finné till TT.
Den första misstanken, som till en början rubricerades som våldtäkt, avskrevs redan i lördags. Finné har nu även avskrivit misstanken om sexuellt ofredande i det fallet.
– Innehållet i förhöret ger inte stöd för att något brott begåtts, skriver Finné i ett mail.
“Detta innebär inte att jag inte fäster tilltro till hennes uppgifter. Jag har studerat innehållet i förhöret för att se om misstanke om annat brott kan anses föreligga, i första hand ofredande eller sexuellt ofredande, men finner vid min analys att så inte är fallet”, utvecklar hon i ett pressmeddelande.
Advokat Claes Borgström som företräder de två kvinnorna är mycket kritisk till åklagarens beslut. Han tänker begära överprövning i båda fallen.
– Det är helt klart för mig att båda fallen rör sig om sexuellt ofredande. Jag ställer mig mycket frågande till det här beslutet, säger han till SvD.se.
Han ifrågasätter även hur det fallet som nu lagts ned kan gå från att rubriceras som våldtäkt till att nu inte ens klassas som sexuellt ofredande.
– För mig som läst samma material som åklagaren är det mycket svårt att förstå den bedömningen.
Advokat Leif Silbersky anser att fallet fått orimliga proportioner och lägger skulden på den jouråklagare som fattade beslutet att i fredags kväll anhålla Assange i hans frånvaro.
– Jag anser att hon har begått ett avsevärt tjänstefel. En kvalificerad åklagare hade kunnat göra bedömningen att det inte handlade om varken våldtäkt eller sexuellt ofredande.
– Hon borde aldrig ha bekräftat för medierna vem som var huvudman. Det är väldigt otäckt, han har stigmatiserats över hela världen som en våldtäktsman, ett av de värsta brott vi känner. Det här har förorsakat min klient enorm skada.
Hur mår han?
– Han är arg, ledsen och besviken på det svenska rättssystemet. Men han mår hyfsat, han vet ju att han inte har gjort någonting fel, säger Leif Silbersky.
Julian Assange anhölls i lördags av jouråklagare, misstänkt för bland annat våldtäkt. Ett knappt dygn senare hävdes beslutet av chefsåklagare Eva Finné.
Fallet har fått stor uppmärksamhet runtom i världen och både medier och åklagarmyndigheten har kritiserats för offentliggörandet av misstankarna.
SvD.se har sökt Julian Assange för en kommentar till dagens händelser.
@admin: ‘@Rick, that’s actually an old story from 4th August.’
Oh goodness. Davis commented on it today. Examiner – Scientology ads plastered all over the place. Makes me wonder. But her rhetoric seemed good at the time.
Now Twitter have several additional right wing nuts saying Assange is guilty of treason (in the US).
Someone needs to call the gene pool cleaner. Here we shall go for a lovely late summer stroll.
P.S. To all swedish speaking persons, let them use lousy translators on the web! D.S.
@nicholas and @everybody for that matter…
Unless I am mistaken, no one on this board personally knows Julian Assange. We all think we have a “fix” on his character because of all the information that’s out there on the internet for us to consume and analyze. So, yes, I am basing my opinion that he’s a “troubled” person on everything I’ve read—and by doing so I don’t discount his importance or his very significant accomplishments.
As for being easily manipulated—well there it is, isn’t it? We are all being manipulated one way or another, let’s at least be honest about that. I hope to be proved wrong about my assumptions thus far. I HOPE this isn’t once again, the case of a man whose public pronouncements are at jarring odds with his private behavior.
@skye
I haven’t jumped ship. I’ve made it pretty clear that I am a huge WikiLeaks supporter.
@Rick: Thanks for the link. I think the clip is up on Youtube as well – albeit much fuzzier. If anyone has a transcript of Assange’s speech I’d love to read it. Much as I admire the man’s message I’m afraid his delivery is a bit soporific.
Does anyone know if there’s a possibility that Mystery Woman 2 (MW2) could be in the audience at this event? I’ve heard competing reports as to whether AA and MW2 knew each other prior to their allegations against JA.
I am NOT- I repeat not – a conspiracy theorist but given the C.I.A.s interest in JA doesn’t it seem logical that there would be at least one spook in the audience at this event?
@bon_fim, Fair enough. If you can enlighten everyone with what you’ve read about Assange that strikes you as “troubling”, please do. I can only speak personally but I have no idea of what he’s like in person. I’m reserving judgment based on the information that’s emerged so far regarding this case.
@vincible1, There were early reports that say they met at some kind of an event although I can’t remember where they were published. Not sure about the spook theory but if the Americans are monitoring his movements regularly, then quite possibly yes.
@Say what: The trial of TPB was in Swedish but partly in English because of the testimony of John Kennedy. The court chose a translator who had neither English nor Swedish as a mother tongue. It was cringeworthy to listen to and there were incorrect translations at several times. The ‘translator’ was in way over his head. Adequate language skills 1) are absolutely necessary; and 2) way misunderstood in Sweden. This is the opinion of most people in the translation business where I worked myself for several years.
JA needs to know what’s going on. Especially already in the first interrogation. This is critical and I assure you that the people in that prosecutor’s office cannot speak/understand English fluently.
Sums it up for me.
Assange: (alleged quote) = “Assange told Der Spiegel in an interview that he likes confronting the powerful. “I enjoy creating systems on a grand scale, and I enjoy helping people who are vulnerable,” he said. “And I enjoy crushing bastards. So it is enjoyable work.”
Source=>http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/aug/21/sweden-withdraws-warrant-for-wikileaks-founder/?page=3
SvD: ‘Assange angry, sad, disappointed’
http://bit.ly/cVHTEp
What we’re looking at here – lest we forget – is in all likelihood a narrative by ‘T20′ that Anna Ardin considered full out rape but Finné doesn’t find out of line at all. I think this adds further grist to the suspicion Ardin – as expressed on Flashback – ‘has one big screw loose’. Remember: it was she who encouraged the other girl to contact the police in the first place.
*T20 is Flashback talk for the 20yo girl.
I can’t wait to read this. [Notice it's in English. Note the pejorative lingo.]
http://twitter.com/annaardin
‘so boys and girls, my blog is up and running again http://ardin.se‘
@vincible: according to this telegraph article, the women’s lawyer has said: “The women went to the police on Friday. Mr Borgstrom declined to say how the women had met, except to say both attended the lecture Mr Assange gave in Stockholm.”
http://bit.ly/aZXwcX
Expressen (OK don’t laugh): http://bit.ly/aA78lz
So it’s Expressen, so take along a bucket of salt. But one tidbit is interesting.
‘Kvinnan berättade att hon haft sex med Assange under hans Sverigebesök’
‘Sista gången gick han för långt, sade den unga kvinnan när hon kom in på polisstationen i Stockholm.’
This implies 1) that they had sex several times but 2) ‘he went too far’ the final time.
Feeling more confused and inundated by tabloid BS than ever.
http://bit.ly/aA78lz again – and no I don’t take this at face value. But still the same.
‘Enligt Expressens källor har hon berättat att hon hade frivillig sex med Julian Assange.’
According to Expressen’s sources she has told people she had consensual sex with Julian Assange.
But wait a second – Expressen boast they’ve had contact with this girl but can’t get her to talk about the incident? And then the magical reporters there somehow reach people who have contact with her friends who openly talk about it? Uh…
‘Men hon var noga med att sätta gränser när de var intima.’
But she was careful to set limits when they were ‘intimate’.
WTF does that mean?
‘På tisdagsförmiddagen hände dock något. Enligt kvinnan struntade Julian Assange i vad de hade kommit överens om kvällen innan. Han gick över gränsen, har hon berättat.’
On Tuesday morning something happened. According to the woman, Julian Assange ignored what they’d agreed to the previous evening. ‘He went too far’ is what she supposedly said [to someone].
‘Efter händelsen skickade hon sms till flera vänner där hon berättade vad som hade hänt. Och polisen har tagit del av innehållet i hennes mobiltelefon, enligt Expressens källor.’
After the event she sent SMS messages to several of her friends where she told them what had happened. And the police have looked at the contents of her cellphone according to Expressen’s sources.
Eyebrows should go way up when Expressen use that worn-out ‘according to Expressen’s sources’.
English translation of latest news on the case here:
http://www.thelocal.se/28574/20100825/
So Assange is not even under suspicion of doing anything sexual. I presume then that he’s being blamed merely for saying something suggestive that she didn’t like. If it’s just that, and he’s been dragged through all this, then someone needs to take a serious look at how rape accusations are dealt with in Sweden as that’s absolutely scandalous.
Coincidental timing but there is a study here that’s been released today by right wing political party Social Democrats which has brought even more scrutiny over how rape is dealt with by the Swedish legal system.
http://www.thelocal.se/28580/20100825/
This broad definition of rape looks likely to be at the root of this entire episode.
@ashasekh: Silbersky implied they never ‘went’ to the police – they simply rang them up.
PS. I’m convinced Silbersky is going to sue the Swedish govt.
Expressen interview clip w Silbersky http://bit.ly/9RzKnw
More from the prosecutor office here:
http://bit.ly/9RzKnw
(from tweets about Assange)
It should be noted that they deny being the source of the initial leak, and that the Q&A format may suggest the fact that they know they are under fire for the mismanagement of the case.
@admin: I avoid thelocal. It’s a mystery how they get their data. Their own forums, whatever. I don’t trust them at all. YMMV.
‘So Assange is not even under suspicion of doing anything sexual.’
No, I’d say he’s not under suspicion of something that’s classified as sexual. That’s a big difference. Another diff is that adding the word ‘sexual’ heightens the gravity of the crime. As Silbersky points out in the interview, ‘ofredande’ can be as little as saying ‘you dirty so-and-so’ to someone. (But I don’t think that’s the case here.)
‘I presume then that he’s being blamed merely for saying something suggestive that she didn’t like.’
That’s the question we can’t get an answer to. Even Silbersky hasn’t seen the protocol yet! As to suggestive? I don’t think so. Especially if it’s true they were already screwing the evening before.
‘If it’s just that, and he’s been dragged through all this, then someone needs to take a serious look at how rape accusations are dealt with in Sweden as that’s absolutely scandalous.’
Someone needs to do that anyway, as I’ve been harping about. Any woman can make a rape charge stick with no evidence whatsoever. And as we’ve seen, the mere charge itself is enough to damage someone’s reputation. But this is part and parcel of Anna Ardin’s agenda: bring false accusations to undermine a supposed ‘patriarchy’.
To me it looks like Ardin might have been using this other girl to advance her own agenda. But then Finné dismissed T20′s story completely. (Finné said she believed T20 – not a legal consideration – but that none of that was a crime.) And so now Ardin, who said she didn’t want to press charges herself, only wanted to ‘ask questions’ and support her ‘friend’, pushes her own story forward on her own when T20 is knocked out. Oh boy.
http://www.thelocal.se/28580/20100825/
Yes. Heard about that. That’s from the far right racists SD. They’re not really taken seriously in Sweden. The data might be good but I think their point is that ‘foreigners are bad’. They want to evict all foreigners like their party friends in the UK. And they only looked at – 114 cases??!??
‘Since 2005 Sweden has one of the broadest definitions of rape in an international perspective.’
No kidding about that. I believe it was RFSU who had a campaign about how ‘you could have been raped without knowing it’.
But rape is not sexual. Everybody knows that. It’s a deliberate act of violence. There is no violence in this sordid Assange story. It’s not rape.
It could be more along the lines of that Swedish blogger who talked about ‘huggy huggy velour sex’ where a couple have to ‘re-negotiate’ what they’re going to do every five minutes. [I've never been a part of this myself but I've heard about it. Yes things can get very crazy there. But even if I were single, I'd avoid women like that anyway. I know they exist but I simply wouldn't habituate the same places they do - and I'd run for the hills if I saw them anywhere.]
‘This broad definition of rape looks likely to be at the root of this entire episode.’
See your point but I think you’re placing the effect before the cause. The reason legislation like this came about is because of the militant feminists – not the other way around. Even Kjellstrand has been called out for being a militant feminist – and for being very rabid in rape cases, jumping the gun on no evidence, etc. I think Rosander is one too. I think most women are like that in Sweden today. It’s just that some are still (for the moment) hetero.
PS. On ‘suggestive’: there are no real taboos there in Sweden. You can say anything at any time. Perhaps not as much as Denmark but still and all. There’s a famous interview with Bruce Springsteen where he jumps up in the middle of the interview and says ‘so wait a minute – I can say anything I want here, can’t I?’ And he gets a nod and then goes right up to the camera, spitting the F-word about a zillion times right at the glass. Sits back down, the girl interviewing asks ‘feel better now’ and Springsteen says ‘yes – thanks!’ So you can’t really say something ‘suggestive’ to someone and get in trouble.
What you can do is insult someone. Försmädelse – something like that. ‘Ofredande’ is literally to disturb (someone’s) peace. Fred = n. peace, o+fred = the opposite, ofredande = the gerund. To disturb someone.
@admin, yes thanks for the correction about the police, though the point of adding the link was to show that at least one report places both of the women at the lecture, which was vincible’s question.
Ms W’s attendance at the lecture is also implied in the guardian report which i believe someone linked to above:
http://bit.ly/crMJE6
within the first four minutes of the lecture video, the camera scans the audience, but i didn’t spot many 25-yr-olds.
@Alberto G: there’s nothing from the prosecutor’s office in my link. That’s Leif Silbersky, Assange’s solicitor, in his own office.
and yes, i’m aware that many of the claims in the press reports must be taken with a grain of salt.
Sorry, I got it wrong.
http://www.aklagare.se/In-English/
This is the correct link.
@ashasekh: it hurts to say this because the Guardian is one of the news sites I’ve admired the most, but I think they’re treading on thin ice these days.
T20 was a photographer, right? So she’d be on the sidelines? If that matters, that is.
So, the “molestation” is not sexual anymore, huh. I wonder, how do you molest someone with your dick without it being sexual? Or WTF are they claiming that he has done? And with what?
@ admin. What has made you think that the Social Democrats are a righy wing party? Granted, politics in Sweden is pretty dull, they all want to stand on the same spot with some populistic rhetoric once in a while to catch fringe voters, but SAP (Socialdemokratiska Arbetarepartiet) “right wing”?!? Nahhh, hardly.
@Alberto G: haha. Cheers.
@Boadacia: I don’t get the connection. Sorry. But you got a cool site there.
@Rick – Thanks, and the connection being (metaphorically) – One can’t upset the Mafia, without repercussions.
@Boadacia: re the connection: Ah. Got it. Cheers.
They released the CIA document.
http://bit.ly/dqyePE http://bit.ly/c4ZyIe
T20: There are two SWs in Enköping.
*Sofia* Linnéa Wilén
Sämskarbogatan 59
74533 Enköping
B-Day: 1983-09-17
Ogift
*Maria* Sofia Margaretha Vilén
Örtagatan 14 3tr
74532 Enköping
B-Day: 1987-10-08
Ogift
The names in asterisks are their ’tilltalsnamn’ – the names they use/the names they’re addressed by.
So there’s only one real candidate in such case. And she’s 26yo. (Remember when Borgström said they were between 25-35?)
So T20 is actually ‘T26′.
@Rick
SD is highley likely to take place in the swedish parlament, so to say that they are not taken seriously is complete bs.
@Celisus, Sorry I got confused between Social Democrats and Sweden Democrats. I meant the latter of course!
I think it’s becoming increasingly clear via everything that we know now that Assange has been accused of something that might not even raise an eyebrow in any other country. At the worst, he may be guilty of merely suggesting something that she didn’t like but Sweden’s laws are such that it could be interpreted as “molestation”.
To make matters worse, the prosecution service has made two vital errors:
1) Issuing a rape warrant
2) Confirming it was for Assange when a newspaper came sniffing
They must take total blame for the second point. The first point was either down to a lack of professionalism or false accusations that were exaggerated out of all proportion by the accusers.
Since the women never actually reported the crime at a police station but merely wanted “advice”, they cannot be held accountable or charged with wasting police time and defamation if Assange is completely cleared. This is rather convenient for them and will leave many wondering if it was indeed a premeditated plan from the very start for ulterior motives – probably either those of a jilted lover, an extreme feminist vendetta or for political reasons.
@admin: Hey! Nothing to add. Summary par excellence. But I think Silbersky might try to sue according to 2) and as clever as he is, even 1).
There’s http://www.sofiawilen.com, it’s also been purged, but google cache shows that it was a photographer’s portfolio site, and google’s cache is a version from Aug 2nd… so an “SW”, Enköping, photographer, deleted website… draw your own conclusions.
@Pistol: I debate their chances of getting in. And you know what I meant by ‘taken seriously’.
Okay, okay this thread has become way too addictive. Time to be moving on. But before I do…
The only thing that I’ve gotten from this whole imbroglio is that it is way too easy to ruin someone’s reputation… at least in Sweden. If the C.I.A./Pentagon were involved, they wouldn’t have even had to try hard. A couple of well placed phone taps and an anonymous call to a tabloid (expressen) and voila, Instant scandal!
It is interesting how quickly even those on this board have latched onto Sofia Wilen’s name as mystery woman 2.
Does anyone have anything definitive to link her with either AA ot JA? (Other than the fact she’s a 26 year old Swedish artist whose last name begins with a “W.” Was she at the JA talk on August 14? Considering she was the one, as I understand it, who brought the original charge of rape, it might be nice to identify this woman before any more speculation flies as to whether JA’s troubles are a result of dirty tricks, jilted lovers, or crazy feminists.
@admin: Kudos for a great thread. Lots of good information and discussion with plenty of links and healthy skepticism.
@Rick: While I appreciate that you are personally discomfited by Swedish feminists, I feel your arguments would be stronger without the use of pejoratives like “scary” and “repulsive.” That being said, I have enjoyed your posts.
@vincible1, thanks for the comments and info. No more info about the other woman so far but I agree it seems way too easy to defame someone for rape in Sweden after what’s happened with Assange. The only small positive that may come out of this is if they look at reforming the legal system in this respect.
@Rick
Well, since they are the headline of todays news media, and swedens prime minister made the statement “don´t vote for them” you can be damn sure they are taken seriously. And as far as their chances for taking a place in the parlament is concerned, the bookmakers sees the probability to around 92% (odds 1.07, 1 to 14). But this is very of topic.
@The rest
I see that the story is slacking behind in this commentary box. I can make an update tomorrow. But now, a good nights sleep.
Au Revoir…
@Pistol: YES, Pistol, I know, I KNOW – but again: read my lips: not in the way I meant. Got it now?
@admin: Agreed about the legal system. But you have to change the *culture* too. Or first. This is not merely a clerical/technical matter. It’s a sociological thing. A really bad one.
* You have a woman standing up in parliament (as an MP) in 2004 and proposing a ‘man tax’ to offset the cost of physical abuse of women. Note there is no mention of the other way around, even though stats show it’s quite common.
* This same woman – today a leading feminist because she had to go into detox and was outed from her previous party for cheating on her taxes for several years – stood up and gave a speech in 2006 comparing Sweden’s treatment of women with the TALIBAN.
And she’s only the tip of the iceberg.
Better legislation? Sure. Thanks. But look at the present case. The first man after Julian in it was Leif Silbersky. Up to then it was 5-1. And it’s like that everywhere. The idea that Sweden is a patriarchy is nonsense, true in theory only. Sweden has long been a functional matriarchy. And the feminists are not looking for any sort of equality – they’re openly hostile to men in general. Not one particular man – the very idea of men itself.
No way any parliament is going to even suggest a law change in that atmosphere.
@vincible1:
‘If the CIA/Pentagon were involved, they wouldn’t have even had to try hard.’
Correct.
‘Does anyone have anything definitive to link her with either AA ot JA?’
Don’t think so. I’ve been wondering the same thing.
‘Swedish artist whose last name begins with a W.’
But that was in the Guardian, right? Where did they get it? What I’ve seen, Flashback started their hunt because of that article. But how did the G get it? Ask yourself. Because I don’t see it.
‘it might be nice to identify this woman ‘
That’s immaterial now as those charges are dropped.
‘your arguments would be stronger without the use of pejoratives like scary and repulsive.’
That’s easier for you to say because you haven’t been exposed to them. To you it’s only words on a screen. I assure you it’s not for the victims. It’s a bit hypocritical on your part. Cheers.
If the name and city are correct for the second woman, this is her.
http://www.hitta.se/ViewDetailsWhite.aspx?vad=Sofia+Wilen&var=Enk%f6ping&Vkiid=uzmP9JlbBVH4kx4vJGcSIQ%253d%253d&Vkid=41145023
Although I am half a world away now, as I usually am, I passed only 200 m from that address only weeks ago…
[...] Christian organization affiliated with Sweden’s Social Democratic Party (she is not, as I have seen written, a “Christian Democrat”). If any of these subliterate bloggers knew anything about the [...]
Just follow the money.
Enköping is a pretty small rural village in Sweden. Population size is ~20,000. There are not many people there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enk%C3%B6ping
@ popcorn. Correct. Very soon you will not even have to slow down as you drive past it, the highway north of town is being upgraded towards the west. To the east, towards Stockholm, it is already very good with dual carriageway and no crossing traffic.
But for Swedish conditions and terminology, Enköping would be a town rather that “rural village”. In their own minds, they try to call it a city… a bit too ambitious IMO.
Without knowing much about Ms W, I would still like to give her some cred, from what has become known and from the guesses that can be made. She seems to be a bit less of a femijihadist (ok, admiin
) than AA, and may have been influenced by AA.
Reasons are:
If she is the alleged photographer her pictures are REALLY good. She has managed to stay pretty anonymous in spite of all the people trying to identify her – well done.
She is not a politician, she has a real job
Maybe JA should have stuck to her and left AA alone…
Yes, I admit I am speculating. I just want to be hopeful and as positive as I can, and give W the benefit of the doubt, as long as we don’t know anything else. And for me, it doesn’t matter if we ever learn more about her. In my eyes she would vindicate herself exactly by disappering from the case and never be heard of again, in this affair, at least.
But as AA is a POLITICIAN, she should be scrutinized! She is looking for power over other people (me included, if I move back to Sweden) and that means that her views and actions should become public. That goes with the territory, she cannot complain. Or else, get out of politics and get another job!
(And by the way, had I still paid taxes in Sweden I would be pissed off by the way she lets other people pay for hear “broken heart” sick leave from her “job”.)
[...] the international crowd the debate still goes on at Nicholas John Mead:s blog. His translations are way better than google translate-results. Postat i Allmänt, Definitioner, [...]
Assange is now only charged with molestation which consists in not moving out quickly enough from the first womens apartment. No sex offence whatsoever.
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article7675868.ab
Maybe this mess will bring something good for us swedes as it should increase the incitement to revise our judicial system. It is difficult to see any positive sides of this story for Assange though.
Excellent blog here people. Thanks for keeping it (mostly) coherent and sensible.
@Maria: “AA has claimed in an interview with Aftonbladet that JA wasn’t violent, which means that he hasn’t forced himself onto her. Which means that if AA wanted him to use a condom and he refused, she must have agreed at some stage to have sex with him anyway. That is neither rape or molestation. It’s just a girl who is so eager to have sex with a celeb/hero that she allows him to talk her into having sex without condom and afterwards when she realizes that he slept with someone else, maybe feels a little bit used and maybe a little bit jealous.
So, if that is what happened, I wouldn’t call JA a rapist, just disrespectful. He sounds like any bachelor/player to me”
As a non-radical feminist woman, I’m inclined to find this intepretation quite logical. As for JA being a ‘player’ – meh, whatever.
Someone else said here that he doubts JA could let his judgement slip in the bedroom…well, I don’t know him personally but when animal instincts take over (and with the possible influence of alcohol), nothing is too far-fetched. Julian Assange is not required to be a monk!
This whole clusterf*ck situation can very well be the result of the wrong people at the wrong time (the women), but with no secret agendas – which may have been exploited by Swedish bureaucrats & gutter press. It’s entirely possible that all of it is true and none of it is true as well.
I perfectly agree that currently there’s no good for Assange, and such allegations have, unfortunately, a tendency to stick for a long time.
Still I think that this case, if Assange is cleared from all the sexual related issues (as he seems to be at the moment), may prove useful in the future to discredit or curb future attempts against him.
There’s no doubt, overall, that some questions will have to be answered also from a political point of view: who informed the newspapers? Why wasn’t Assange’s privacy protected by the prosecutors? Who will pay the price of such damning failure of the prosecutor office, which has internationally discredited the Swedish legal system?
Because it has been ridiculed enough, and although someone may say that the office reacted quickly to the early mistakes there’s a widespread opinion that the matter was handled in a far from professional way.
Someone must be held accountable for that, and it isn’t Assange.
This is INSANE!
Now they are saying the only thing Assange did that was illegal was staying a day at Ardins after being asked to leave…. (prolly cause sexual thing did not work out)
All this for that? A day too much…. moving from the person he was assigned to help with workrelated things
OMG! THIS IS TOO MUCH!
Erik, Blog Aktivarum, Sweden
Minke Stole:
What do you mean Assange being disrespectful cause he (if) he is a player?
That sound like a person who would have called Assange a slut had he been a woman doing two guys. Hardly a feminist thing to say
Players are successful with women cause women LIKE players. The reason Monica Lewinsky had sex with then President Bill Clinton was cause she heard other women in Whiskey Hotel gossiping of the sex affairs of the boss.
Since now everyone knows Assange had sex with 2 different women the 3 days in question, women will be all over him next place he sets up shop (as if they were not already haha)
What the heck is that? Not leaving a persons residence quickly enough when asked (was he asked?) is “molestation?” That’s an um..er.. interesting definition of molestation. Why not trespassing? Does Sweden not have laws against trespassing? And why were the police not called to remove him from the premises at that time if his presence was such an affront? This is becoming comical. I guess I need understand it better but, on its face, the entire thing is absurd and absolutely smacks of a smear campaign.
@Erik – Where did you read the staying too long bit?
Also, if him staying there too long was a criminal offense, could Anna Ardin have called the police to have him removed? Or merely threated to call the police. He would have been out of there in no time at all.
Popcorn,
I believe Erik was responding to this (and the link found therein):
http://nicholasmead.com/2010/08/21/how-to-smear-a-hero/#comment-1849
Maybe he committed another unforgiveable offense like not putting the toothpaste cap back on or leaving the toilet seat up? From all the reports here it seems these might be jail-worthy crimes in Sweden.
Popcorn:
Yes we do have trespassing (hemfridsbrott) in Sweden but this case is just stupid now…
They had sex, 14 aug she was not satisfied the way he handles sexual relationship she demands he “test” himself. he refuses, she demands him out of the apartment at Södermalm Stockholm where he lived … he takes his time …. NOTHING HAPPENS…
6 days later, she meet another girl who Assagnge had sex with (a younger woman! that one always makes women so joyful and happy =) 17 aug 3 days earlier and they both are so angry with him they press charges 20 aug. And for what?!
Well in first case molestation…. in second case RAPE… and the rape-charge is so unbelivably stupid it takes the head prosecutor (ha ha) just a few hours to conclude it is not rape at all…
And then we have ROSANDER…. OMG!!! Her on Al-Jazeera is the worst I have seen in ages.
“We had information..Then she had more information”
*cringes*
The Al Jazeera reporter looks like he wonder if he dialed the wrong number and shes just pulling his leg.
As if you peeps did not laugh enough when you got to see Carl Henric Swanberg “we care about the small people” Now ANOTHER swedish high-positioned person who cant speak english if her life depends on it.
The radical feminist agenda have made people insane. They are so scared to be accused of misogny they cant even do their job remotely objective. All they can do is cover their back.
I suspect the only reason the molestation charge is even still their is cause the second Assange is declared innocent world media will STORM the Prosecutor office and look for answers. The only thing keeping the media at bay is this tiny remaining charge.
The idea that swedens two most well known lawyers should go up in court in a case of molestation is ridicolous. Both those two are well known media lawyers.
The only thing going against Assange right now is his choice of lawyer. Swedish Comedian Magnus Betner said
“If a person chooses Silbersky we KNOW he is guilty, everyone choosing Silbersky is guilty thats the rule”
If only Assange had not choosen Silbesky he could be a free innocent man now LOL (Jk)
Erik, what really doesn’t sum up is that the lawyer for the women lamented the fact that the plaintiffs haven’t been interviewed by prosecution officers, and we know Assange hasn’t been interviewed too.
One must wonder, at this point, on which information the first prosecutor RUSHED the warrant, and where does the additional information come from, if not from interviews. It could come from the police in the form of an extended report differing substantially from the preliminary one, or the warrant could have been rushed after a phone call, or something like that. That’s another thing that the prosecutor office should clarify.
@ Alberto G. There is an interesting twist to this whole business that relates to what you are bringing up.
Sweden has very good protection laws for whistleblowers. Anyone who goes to a newspaper will be safe from prosecution by TF – Tryckfrihetsförordningen, one of the constitutional laws. It is ILLEGAL for ANYONE to even TRY to research who the cource of a leak to a newspaper is. So the prosecutors office and the police have their hands tied. They cannot even attempt to try and find out who leaked. (If anyone did, i think AA went to the paper herself and then they just had to call up the prosecutor and check. Stupidly, they confirmed.)
Now, is that a sick law, or what?!? No it is not!!! It is an important part of civic protection against power abuse by authorities.
AND, here is the good part. It is also exactly the reason why WikiLeaks has chosen Sweden as a base for their servers. However, they failed to understand that TF only protects media with a publishers certificate. (Which is the sick part of the law, BTW.) And it was to get that certificate in order that JA went to Sweden this time. The talk at Broderskaps as just a side show.
I think it’s possible that one of the reasons for holding back the final Afghan docs (the “insurance”) was to finalise the application for the publishers certificate, to render the insurance unnecessary.
Sweden is about to pass a law that criminalizes possession of nude pictures of yourself at age 17 or younger. An April joke? No, an actual law proposal that most likely will be enacted:
http://www.sweden.gov.se/content/1/c6/13/68/39/7c84db92.pdf (see page 55)
For those of you who thought the JA case and the “child porn” pin-up drawings verdict were the ultimate in legal hilarity…
While this is interesting relating to the leak part, it isn’t directly related to the information discrepancy which is supposedly, at least from Rosander words, at the base of the different evaluations made by the prosecutors.
For the leakage part, as already said, the confirmation made by Rosander might be, in itself, a violation for which she might be held accountable. At least, I hope so.
Will, at this point, the prosecutor office want to come clear from all the mistakes prosecuting some officers? I doubt it will happen, but this is one of the factors that separates modern, civil countries from fake democratic regimes: accountability.
I’m sorry to say this, but I had a far better opinion of Sweden a week ago. Northern socialdemocracies have always been a model to me, but I realise I’m a bit naive.
Celsius
How in the world can that be? Even if the “leaked” information is an out-and-out lie that is intended to defame an individual? What if Assange is completely exonerated and chooses to bring a civil suit against the women, the police dept, the newspaper and whoever leaked a lie meant to defame him? Wouldn’t there need to be an investigation to determine who that “leaker” was? Another thing I am curious about – if it was suspected that the women outright lied about it all, would they not be subject to possible criminal charges themselves for lying to the authorities?
Regardless, there is a difference between whistleblowing on a Government and/or large corporation and leaking information about an individual. The latter isn’t “whistleblowing” at all. Not by any definition I have ever heard of.
blink: I highly doubt there is a law that protect those that leak information from governments and doesn’t protect those that leak other information. If the reason isn’t obvious I’ll spell it out – no government want their information leaked.
I think your obvious double standards are hilarious.
Our “Constitution” protects sources. That is not something that will be lifted and a civil suit, that is uncommon here, can’t budge on our constitution either. If they could, I would be horrified. This is the reason Julian Assange came here. See the irony?
Göran: That is a Proposition. There is Propositions and Motions, with the difference being that the Proposition comes from the government and the Motion from the parliament.
Both motions and propositions are SUGGESTIONS. It has to pass trough a lot of hoops before actually becoming a law. Like being discussed for a year or something. Not all propositions and motions become laws.
Quote = “Kristinn Hrafnsson, a WikiLeaks spokesman in Iceland, called the sequence of events related to the arrest warrant too “remarkable” to rule out ulterior motives.
“It is such an unbelievable unfolding of events that it would be unnatural not to consider that there is something behind it,” he said.
A small Swedish justice watchdog group, RO, said it filed a complaint Sunday against the on-call prosecutor to the Ombudsmen of Justice, an office that investigates wrongdoing by public authorities. The complaint accused her of issuing the arrest warrant “without having enough information to make such a decision,” said Johann Binninge, the group’s chairman and founder.”
Source = http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/aug/22/swedish-prosecutors-defend-wikileaks-about-face/?page=2
OK. From the news article in GoogleEnglish:
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article7675868.ab
> Assange lived with the woman a few days. According to Aftonbladet deals with allegations of molestation that he, since she explicitly asked him to move, stayed some more days.
So, not only did Anna Ardin to call the police to have him removed. She also let him in & out for a few days. Didn’t lock him out, and didn’t pack his shit up and put it on the doorstep.
I seriously doubt Julian was staying in her house for a few days & never left. It only becomes a complaint after Anna finds out he fucking another younger better looking girl.
Ergo, but what about confirming the identity of an investigated person? In such case, the identification of the source is automatic (aka Rosander). Isn’t that, in Sweden, a violation of investigation secrecy?
In my Country it is a crime for public officers (violation of office secrets), and it should be generally prosecuted, although most of the times with dubious results.
Does that apply to Sweden too, or public officers have no obligation to keep quiet about investigations?
@Ergo
So, governments are persons? Individual people and created “legal entities” are the same thing deserving of the same protections? Also, there is no difference between defamation and truth? Both are to be equally “protected?” I mean, really there is no such thing as slander and/or defamation in Sweden?
If I go to the police and mention – not accuse – just mention for the purposes of getting advice, that this person I know named Ergo has sex with goats and then I anonymously leak that information to a local paper and that paper then calls the police to confirm if there have been reports that you have sex with goats and the police confirm that “yes there have been reports that he screws goats and we are looking into it” and the paper then prints that information, I, as the leaker of a total lie, who has defamed your character, am totally protected from any repercussions, correct? And further, that protection makes as much sense as laws protecting a person or group who exposes the inner workings governments?
Perhaps we are talking past each other here. I am not a lawyer but here in the U.S. there is a difference between protecting whistleblowers who expose lies and corruption and protecting people who lie in order to defame another individual human being.
@ blink. The leaker or source, same thing as I see it, is protected. BUT the publisher must be careful what they publish. That is the reason for the publishers certificate. The person who is responsible, editor in chief I suppose it is called, must make sure that what they publish is true and legal, i.e. not defamation. The publisher (legal entity, paper or whatever) may be taken to court if they do not follow the law regarding defamation, etc. And they may lose their certificate if they break the law, and the editor in chief can be punished.
So there are checks and balances in the system.
I think the one who confirmed at the prosecutor and the newspaper Expressen may be in trouble, but I doubt it. The source is safe in any case.
Are you guys all supporters of the wikileaks project? Do your views reflect wikileaks values? Rick, admin, Popcorn and others, your answers would be appreciated.
@ Ergo: Every time I read someone calling Assange’s (or WL’s) situation “ironic,” I see a false equivalence being drawn, as I hope everyone who believes in democracy will.
The default for citizens in a genuine democracy is liberty, which entails privacy. The state/government has to have very very very good reasons to intrude on a citizen’s life, and that is the principle encoded in everyone’s bills and declarations and charters of rights and freedoms.
The default for the state/government is transparency. The state/government has to have very very very good reasons to keep anything at all secret from the people, whose creature the government is.
I take it that those are the underlying principles on which WL runs, and that’s why I support them.
I’m agreeing mainly with blink, although from what I’ve read through the past decade, I’m not at all sure that the U.S. gov is living up to the splendid principles of the Bill of Rights when it comes to whistleblowers, or the distinction between citizens and state.
The truth of the Assange-case finally arrives!
According to article in RESUME
Assange meets “Ms W” after the LO-borgen event on 14 august, they decide to meet later and exchange phone numbers
Assange hade protected sex with “Ms W” on the night 16 august at her place in Enköping, on the morning 17 august they had unprotected sex.
Later that day she follows him to the train…
On August 18th she is worried over the risk of STD (hiv) and gets contect with Anna Ardin
Ardin tells her about the claimed molestation on the day before the event at LO-borgen.
However according to another news media the molestation was on the morning the same day as the LO-borgen event
The more serious situation seemed in the media to be the one with Ms W…. However now it seems like it was Ardins molestation that was the more serious situation while whatever happened with Ms W in Enköping was nothing except “he promised to wear rubber and didnt”
However at 20 august when the two women filed charges the two situations had magically switched places.
Its obvious that when Ms W and Ardin started talking had both had unprotected sex although “he promised to protect himself” …Well ANGER and JEALOUSY was the result… and not cause of rape but cause of that two-timing lying SOB….!
There you have it, finally!
Two-timing means risking rape-charge! Cause police and prosecutors are terrified of not being “feminist” enough.
@Anonymous
When we read reports such as this => http://goo.gl/FW0n if it is true, it seems Wikileaks was long overdue irrespective of opinions of morals, values, and political leanings.
Throughout the whole of human history never has there been a time when communication and technology can enlighten and empower those who attempt to ensure some balance in gross abuses of privilege and criminal misinformed propaganda.
If the whole concept of Wikileaks and others of a similar nature were to fail, we cannot complain if we all end up with governments such as Burma and North Korea, not to mention many others of dubious human rights records here in the west too.
skdadl: I support Wikileaks works and I do think transparency is necessary. Anything else was far from my point. I was merely explaining how the law works here. The idea that our constitution should be put on hold so that one can find who gave Expressen this information is horrifying. Not because one doesn’t want to know, but because these laws are what this country is based on. If one starts to fiddle around and break them or put them on hold thats a very slipper slope. I think you would agree that any government that would do that do not serve its citizens needs anymore.
Blink: The source that leaked to Expressen is safe. Because thats how the law works here. You might want it to work in another way – but it doesn’t. There is laws for defamation, but the leakers of this information will most likely not be held accountable. I have not said anything about the accusers of Assange. That is an entirely different matter (No, it doesn’t matter if the leakers and accusers are the same persons) and you can stop putting words in my mouth.
@Erik – Do you have a link to that article? I don’t want to jump the gun on anything.
Also, if all the charges against Julian have been dropped except him over staying his welcome, why are we still treating Julian as a suspect and Anna Ardin & Sofia Wilen as victims?
And they dropped the charge even before they attempted to speak with Julian. So it isn’t as if they even doubt what these two women say, It’s just what these women say isn’t even a crime.
Right now there are roving packs of girls from the Rebella unga S-kvinnor (a feminist club that Anna Ardin leadsf) running around slandering Julian in a pretty brutal way. Calling him a chauvinist pig, a misogynist & just about every other name in the book. They are running around saying that Julian did something very wrong but refuse to say exactly what it is or how it came about. Some make an implication and when we ask how something like that could ever come about, they reply for us to just use our imagination. I think the women involved need to either put up or shut up with their accusations. Hiding behind a networking gossiping network of women who evidently have half the story & are allowed to let their imaginations run wild to perform the character assassination is wholly irresponsible.
If Julian was a female their behavior would be called “slut shaming” & blatant misandry. (For those who don’t know what that word means, it is the female equivalent of misogyny).
I also find that the women’s claim that they did not intend for the police to press charges and that they were merely “asking advice” to be wholly disingenuous. If they didn’t want charges pressed, why is their lawyer (who is paid to act in their interests) complaining that rape charges have been dropped and that there should at least be sexual molestation charges. And this is for both women. Clearly they both want & wanted Julian charged, but they want to blame it on some other 3rd party like the police and pretend they are innocent helpless women caught up in it all.
A little more reading material => http://goo.gl/bDdP
@Boadacia – Interesting read. But that is all about some conspiracy theory that external forces, e.g. the CIA, is running a smear campaign to discredit Julian.
Now you will have to back that up with some facts… or at least some probably paths to investigate.
Are you implying that Anna Ardin is a secret agent? Or some prostitute available for hire? Or had some point of leverage where she was convinced to take Julian down?
Or are you implying that Sofia Wilken “T20″ is one of the above? Admittedly the on-line foot print of Sofia Wilken is extremely sparse. And her professional website was only set up in August. But she does appear to have a background at a University & friends so she does appear to be a real person and indeed a photography, if only an unaccomplished photographer.
I’ve looked with a skeptical mind, but to date, I just don’t see anything more apparent than two groupies (one a radical feminist) having sex & getting pissed when they find out they are not the only ones in town in on the action.
Google translation of the First part of the Resume article that spells out the time line:
“Resumé have reviewed police documents and talked to sources with good transparency in the affair Julian Assange. Here is the short version:
A young woman in Enköping, here called Mary, saw a few weeks ago Julian Assange on television and became curious about Wikileaks revelations. When she saw that he would speak for the Christian Socialists in the LO, she reported to the castle, took time off from work and went to the lecture.
• Saturday, August 14:
Mary helps Julian Assange to buy the right computer cord before the presentation. Afterwards she waits while journalists interviewing him and becomes medbjuden to a late lunch. The two will then take the underground rail to Cosmonova and go to the movies. He is the crayfish party in the evening and Maria goes home with the promise that they will meet more.
• Sunday, August 15:
Mary tries to call Assange, but his mobile is switched off.
• Monday, August 16:
Maria Find Julian Assange after work, they meet in Munkbron and decides to go to Enköping. In her apartment, they have protected sex.
• Tuesday, August 17:
In the morning, the couple has unprotected sex. Julian Assange moving a meeting at Aftonbladet and they go to the train. Mary pays all the time, because he says he has no money. Julian Assange promise to call.
• Wednesday, August 18:
Mary is anxious to have been infected with something, at worst HIV. She has demanded that he should use condoms, but is upset that he did not do it in the morning. She makes contact with a woman, we call her Hannah, who has been involved in arranging Julian Assanges Sweden visits and loaned his apartment to him. Hanna says that Julian Assange days before the meeting of the LO-bond exposed her for what is now suspected molestation. “
@Popcorn
Not so much any implication, – as a sharing of any information I, or other interested parties, are yet to see.
As whether it’s feasible, or if any evidence is available, is another whole bag of worms of possible conspiracy theory v suspicious coincidence.
It may be difficult for some of us to imagine people with a zero internet footprint, but they do exist. (come meet my mother)
Just a personal opinion, but Julian seems to court situations of controversy and danger frequently, and might even enjoy it, possibly related to his upbringing, so all this current news should be no surprise considering the enemies he’s bound to attract.
@ Boadacia. “If the whole concept of Wikileaks and others of a similar nature were to fail, we cannot complain if we all end up with governments such as Burma and North Korea, not to mention many others of dubious human rights records here in the west too.”
Agree 100%. At present it seems that it is the US government we should worry about. Wikileaks seem to upset them more than anyone else, right? (NB. I do not imply any spook conspiracy in this case, though.)
Popcorn wrote:
“I’ve looked with a skeptical mind, but to date, I just don’t see anything more apparent than two groupies (one a radical feminist) having sex & getting pissed when they find out they are not the only ones in town in on the action.”
Two groupies?
These two women were both working for WL. Ms A was organizing the seminar, promoting Wikileaks work and taking care of WL Leader, offering her home to him etc. Ms W was apparently working to promote WL work as well as a photographer – she is a professional in that, and both of these women are clearly very educated.
So there’re two quite educated and useful volunteer workers for the WL. Both of them do their volutary work for this organization and in addition they both take care of Julian’s needs, offering food, a safe place to stay etc. It is very clear that an organization like Wikileaks needs those kinds of volunteers.
What is the structure of this Wikileaks organization?
There is one leader, a celebrity of sorts, although a radical, and then there are countless of volunteers without a name that we never hear of but who do the work. Wikileaks as an organization is not just one man. The good work that Wikileaks has done hasn’t been done by just one man. That one man, Julian Assange, only takes the credit of that all. The invisible workers do their work without fame and glory and without pay – instead, they donate their money, their time, their energy, their skills, their networks etc for the good cause. How are these people treated in return?
They are seen as ‘groupies’. They have also been called as whores. One fan of Julian in FB site suggested that Ms A should be mentally raped because that’s what she deserves. There’s been a lot of disgusting misogynist trash thrown at these two women who’ve been used and abused by the WL Leader and then harassed and stalked by WL Fans. Who made this internet community a jury or a judge? And yet there’s already been a trial based on Google translations, poor reading and judgement and lack of understanding in cases like this. Like in this thread too. Where a handful of men get to declare Julian as an innocent victim of those dirty rotten Swedish feminists, and Julian’s abusive behavior as ‘normal bachelor way of life’. But what Julian has been doing with these two voluntary workers has clearly been use and abuse.
Well, this is just something that happens in cult groups and organizations all the time. Cult leaders often misuse their privileged position and abuse their followers, especially those in the inner circle. All kind of abuse including sexual abuse is seen “as normal” but also as something to not talk about openly, a secret, hush-hush. The cult leader is seen as innocent, pure and as someone who’s “done sooo much for the cause” and so in cases where cult members are posing critical questions or complaints, they are always blamed for controversy and judged by the majority of the cult group – being blindly lead by their privileged leader. Those who have anything against the leader or the undemocratic, unequal ways of the organization are deemed bad, they are being demonized. The boss is always right, even when he’s wrong.
Now, I’m not saying that WL is a cult group, just that there is nothing unusual in this case. Abusing power is what they do in corporations and governments, religious and political groups, various kinds of organizations etc – it’s everywhere. And now I see that it is also in this organization, that I’ve deeply respected and admired.
I still respect and admire Wikileaks. But I do not admire Julian Assange’s misconduct, as revealed with this case. IMO Julian smeared himself, he did it himself, and no amount of blaming and finger pointing will save him. He should take responsibility of his own actions, but maybe he’s just as incapable of doing that as other privileged leaders in this world. Sad.
I have to agree with Ulla that Julian Assange is the architect of his own misery. Instead of “dirty tricks”, it was Julian’s own behavior than landed him in this mess. For goodness’ sake, if a woman asks you to use a condom, then use a damn condom. It’s that easy.
It was undoubtedly a hard lesson for him to learn that with Wikileaks boom in popularity, his personal life would now be of interest to his fans/supporters, and detractors. And as the face of a organization dependent on donations, that his actions in his private life can determine whether enough money will be raised to keep the servers running for another month.
Ulla, weak performance, you’ll have to work on those rhethorics some more, it really is rather easy to see through that …
“Now, I’m not saying that WL is a cult”, “And now I see that it is also in this organization that I’ve deeply respected and admirred”
… mhm … of course …. yeah sure …. 0.o
apparently somebody figured this blog is to WL friendly …
I consider most data gathered from different sources informative, but far from conclusive, and far less than reliable.
Assange’s recollection of facts still isn’t known, not to us, not to the prosecutors. Before that having an opinion on someone’s behaviour is premature. I have, at the moment, half an opinion, but it won’t be public because it’s based on what I consider, mostly, hearsay from unreliable or unconfirmed sources, therefore subject to radical change.
I’d prefer to keep all the feminist/relationship with power issues out of the story in absence of conclusive evidence. This case is deeply related to these subjects, but synthesis comes after analysis, and as a person involved in the treatment of information I’d consider the data insufficient for analysis. Garbage in, garbage out.
Ulla and Colleen, I’ve been a feminist for fifty years, but I am very uncomfortable with the melodramatizing of whatever happened in this case, of private and personal truths we can’t know and don’t need to know and shouldn’t know unless a crime was committed.
Ulla, suddenly you are imagining that Assange is a veritable cult leader? How did you get there? I suppose that if you’re a novelist and you know his background, there’s a certain verisimilitude, so you can spin a good story from that, but that’s all it is — a story that might be interesting … if it weren’t damaging to a real human being.
Seriously: all we know is that three adults, one man and two women, appear to have had sex. Is anyone fainting yet?
The melodrama is precisely the stuff that the American media run on, that keeps the people of the U.S. mostly anaesthetized and therefore unable to stop their own government from raping the rest of the world. Why would you want to contribute to that when you have no information to back up your fantasies?
Me, I have no difficulty at all believing that a woman can sometimes be spiteful. I also have no difficulty at all believing that people can often get in over their heads and then just keep making things worse because they are embarrassed to tell the truth. I don’t know the two women involved in this case, but I have seen the valuable work that WL does, and I’ve listened to Assange talk. He does not strike me as someone who would shrink from telling the truth, however personally embarrassing it might be.
I’ve been a bit out of the loop for the past day on all this but it’s been interesting reading your comments. Thanks to everyone for keeping it civilized (more or less).
I still don’t think anyone can jump to conclusions about what happened yet because the crucial details still aren’t clear and more revelations seem to be leaking out on a daily basis which keep changing the picture. Most importantly, Assange himself hasn’t been given the opportunity to publicly give his version of events although much has leaked out about the women’s.
However, I notice that some are now questioning Assange’s “motives”. Did he abuse his popularity and their hospitality to sleep with them? Sure it’s possible. But isn’t it equally possible that the women themselves were eager to sleep with the “hero”? Or are all women too pure to do that?
There are two things we can say with absolute certainty however.
1) Assange is definitely not guilty of rape. Someone should be held accountable for labelling him as such and for the defamation that’s followed but it looks like no one will. That in itself is a scandal.
2) WikiLeaks will continue with or without Assange. He made it clear quite some ago that he will leave the organization anyway at sometime in the future to pursue other projects.
The second point is the most important. Assange’s personal business is something entirely separate from the work WikiLeaks is doing. Whether or not he has been the victim of a plot, WikiLeaks will continue to thrive which for people concerned with greater transparency of abuses of power in the world, is the most important thing of all.
It’s probably about time now that people returned to focusing on WikiLeaks work than the personal life or potential plots to frame the man who founded it.
Assange learned the hard way not to hang out with radical feminists. Especially in Sweden.
I find some of the comments here amazing.
WL a cult? Julian Assange some evil molester who presumably ran out of condoms but didn’t *force* any of the sex, but these women were coerced by hypnosis by the cult leader into submission, but later realized the master plan?
There’s as much logic there as Kim Jong-il’s Equality Commission.
I’ll just wait for the evidence to come.
@Daniel Klasson, Are you back in Sweden now then?
admin: it wold be nice in a perfect world if personal was separate, but that is not reality, try telling Clinton and the thousands of politicians, etc, brought down by their “private business.”
The greatest logic ever is saying “Who made this internet community a jury or a judge?” to defend the women from people who formed an opinion based on facts that presumably were told by them and then putting Assange on trial and condemning him in the same comment. A trial in absentia, whose outcome has already been decided without the defendant even being entitled to speak.
Sincerely, some opinions may be reprehensible, but Ulla’s logic defies credibility. That’s prejudice.
[...] what to make of this episode, and few were bold enough to make any strong speculations publicly. Two bloggers explored the (possible) inner workings of the situation, with Nicholas Mead using it to argue that [...]
A great conversation folks thanks. Something is nagging at me in all this is the one character without which this smear campaign could not work and that is the on duty prosecutor Maria Häljebo Kjellstrand. She made these charges and then what? She disappears? Doesn’t she have a job somewhere or do Swedish prosecutors have that much latitude in “dropping out”. I understand that her husband works for the barely educated Minister of Justice. Her role is uniquely damaging and her disappearance incredibly convenient. Anyone have background on Kjellstrand?
Thanks Lionelle
@skdadl: well stated, thank you.
I too am amazed by the melodrama that has unfolded around both camps, as if each side feels it must make use of the elements of opera to solidify their case.
Most of the media plays right along. Cannot speak about the Swedish papers as I am too reliant upon google translate to make an assessment, but the American press has missed the boat: either they are ignoring the story for the most part, or they gleefully make it worse.
Reasonable people nowadays, I think, realize that calling the women whores is an unacceptable mode of slut-shaming. But the feminist groups seem to have compounded the problem by disseminating information that cannot be verified and remains one sided: for example, though AA has claimed through intermediaries that the issue arose from non-use of a condom (at least that’s what the papers and the translations say), we still have not heard the other side of the story. Yet everyone is willing to hang Assange out to dry.
While I think it is not too credible yet that the spooks were behind this event, you can see that the conservative US media is furthering the CIA/Pentagon cause in its wake.
@Skye:
The difference between Clinton and Assange is a government can be brought down by a sex scandal – a grassroots internet based project like WikiLeaks can’t be. There is no real center of power to WikiLeaks which is why it is such an inspiring project for those concerned with re-empowering democracy and why WikiLeaks – and the potential of the internet is general – is so utterly terrifying to traditional powerful interests.
@Ulla, Wikipedia defines Cult as “a groups whose beliefs or practices are reasonably considered strange”. If you believe that trying to bring more transparency to abuses of power is a strange thing to do then yes, it is a “cult”. If however, as I suspect, you mean Assange is somekind of David Koresh for the 21st Century who seeks absolute hero worship and demands to have sex with all of his female followers, then I don’t.
@Lionelle, It’s a good point and one of the most crucial moments of the entire story. Whether or not the evidence pointed towards rape, why on Earth did she confirm Assange’s name when Expressen newspaper called her? This blog claims that the Swedish justice department – of which her husband is chief as you say – has close links to the CIA. Even the UN condemned Sweden for what it concluded was collaboration between the Swedish justice department and American secret services in the abduction of two Egyptians. The report says:
All this goes to show is that the the department that Kjellstrand’s husband presides over does sometimes cooperate with American secret services. It proves nothing in the Assange case and all we’re left with is wild “conspiracy” specualtion unless something more concrete comes out. As for her position now, I know that an independent justice organization has called for an inquiry into her conduct and Assange’s lawyer has condemned it. Since what she did was completely against the policy of the public prosecution service, there should surely at least be some sort of disciplinary measures or internal investigation going on.
18:30 Update 27th Aug: The lawyer for the women now wants to “re-charge” Assange with rape on both girls. He says:
He adds confusingly:
Oh, and Expressen now claim the girls “didn’t know each other”. So we’re back to the consual-sex rape situation again. This is turning into a real shocking indictment on the Swedish legal system in respect to sexual crimes and Expressen newspaper’s reporting integrity. Or it’s just meant to be a confusing distraction away from a more serious plot.
Full story here:
http://tinyurl.com/37zln2s
Ulla wrote:
“Two groupies? These two women were both working for WL. Ms A was organizing the seminar, promoting Wikileaks work and taking care of WL Leader, offering her home to him etc. Ms W was apparently working to promote WL work as well as a photographer – she is a professional in that, and both of these women are clearly very educated. So there’re two quite educated and useful volunteer workers for the WL. Both of them do their volutary work for this organization and in addition they both take care of Julian’s needs, offering food, a safe place to stay etc.”
Yes groupies. Wanting rub shoulders with someone famous for the thrill. You make quite about about their efforts for a weekend worth of work. It isn’t as if they spent a lot of time doing work for wikileaks outside of that. Sofia just popped in out of no where after seeing Julian on TV. Educated women? So what? You should see what kind of fools some women make of themselves to get close to musicians back stage. Education doesn’t seem to be the defining characteristic.
Ulla wrote:
“It is very clear that an organization like Wikileaks needs those kinds of volunteers.”
LOL. I’m thinking that wikileaks could very well do without these kinds of “volunteers”. Pop up to spend time with someone famous, get them into the sack, get pissed when the relationship doesn’t turn out like they expected and then throw a huge hissy fit over jilted love. It soon becomes all about them. Clearly Drama Llamas. I’ve seen their type before in volunteer efforts like this. If the mission is so important, don’t sleep around & then ask people to take sides, and malign other people. It’s all about the attention & martyr complex.
Ulla wrote:
“There is one leader, a celebrity of sorts, although a radical, and then there are countless of volunteers without a name that we never hear of but who do the work. Wikileaks as an organization is not just one man. The good work that Wikileaks has done hasn’t been done by just one man. That one man, Julian Assange, only takes the credit of that all. The invisible workers do their work without fame and glory and without pay – instead, they donate their money, their time, their energy, their skills, their networks etc for the good cause. How are these people treated in return?”
Most of them like it that way. I certainly wouldn’t want to be in Julian’s shoes. Believe or not there are many people in this world who do good work and don’t want any recognition at all. They take satisfaction from doing good works & seeing the results. And they wouldn’t want it any other way.
I don’t see Julian taking credit for all of their work. He is the spokes person. A public face that yes, people tend to throw credit at, but he also takes all of the flak.
Ulla wrote:
“They are seen as ‘groupies’.”
I think the shoe fits.
Ulla wrote:
“They have also been called as whores. One fan of Julian in FB site suggested that Ms A should be mentally raped because that’s what she deserves. There’s been a lot of disgusting misogynist trash thrown at these two women”
Yes. I have seen that kind of misogynistic abuse. Not as much as I would have expected. I avoid using derogatory female terms myself. But this is a two sided coin. The misandry I have seen coming from Anna & Anna’s friends & her Young Rebel’s political ground has been even more over the top, vicious & derogatory. I haven’t seen such sexist ideas and language in a while. The hierocracy is overbearing.
Ulla wrote:
“who’ve been used and abused by the WL Leader”
What abuse? The charges have been dropped. Give us some facts or quit your yapp’n with these unfounded accusations.
Ulla wrote:
“and then harassed and stalked by WL Fans.”
That I disagree with. But Anna supporters have been at least just as bad. A mirror needs to be presented to both sides.
Ulla wrote:
Who made this internet community a jury or a judge?
Are you saying I can’t make a decision, or evaluate information just as you are doing? What makes you more special than me?
Also, Anna has done an interview to put her spin on it & made accusations to slander a man in the public eye. She is feeding her spin to her “friends” which gets leaked to the press to put her spin on it. She even has her political group trying to sway public opinion & think of the man in a bad way. They have their lawyer busy doing interviews, spinning facts & public opinion. If Anna really doesn’t want the public or the make an educated assessment of the information she should be quite & have her lawyer do the same & ask her friends to stop trying to spin stuff perform character assassination. You can’t have your cake & eat it too.
Ulla wrote:
“And yet there’s already been a trial based on Google translations, poor reading and judgement and lack of understanding in cases like this.”
You under estimate us. This is just a lousy excuse as to why you are entitled to think & make evaluations & we are not. I am sure I could find some reasons as to why you are not capable to make decisions or evaluate information too.
Ulla wrote:
“Like in this thread too. Where a handful of men“
You assume we are all men?
Ulla wrote:
“get to declare Julian as an innocent victim “
We didn’t. The prosecutor did. They dropped the charges.
Ulla wrote:
“of those dirty rotten Swedish feminists,”
The worst I have heard about Swedish feminists are from Sweds themselves. I’ve seen a lot of really good Swedish feminists who do truly believe in equality & fairness. And I’ve seen a lot of Swedish feminists who are nothing more than misandrist. These are the ones who have become the female version of what they claim to hate so much. It appears that some Sweds seem to think that the feminist power base has gone too far in Sweden to create an abusive power base. I personally am withholding judgment on that as I learn about the Swedish laws & power structure.
Ulla wrote:
“and Julian’s abusive behavior as ‘normal bachelor way of life’. But what Julian has been doing with these two voluntary workers has clearly been use and abuse.”
Julian’s life is anything but normal. As far as ‘abusive behavior’ or ‘clearly been use and abuse,’ you are going to have to spell out what exactly that abuse is so I can make a determination. Then I can start to make an evaluation. But as it stands now, you are just dishing out unsubstantiated character assassination not unlike the other misogynists.
Ulla wrote:
“Well, this is just something that happens in cult groups and organizations all the time.”
Trust me. I have studied cults. Wikileaks is no cult.
Ulla wrote:
“Now, I’m not saying that WL is a cult group, “
And I’m not saying that you beat your spouse/boyfriend.
Ulla wrote:
“But I do not admire Julian Assange’s”
Hey, you totally free to not like the guy.
Ulla wrote:
“misconduct, as revealed with this case.”
Spit out the misconduct.
Ulla wrote:
“IMO Julian smeared himself, he did it himself, and no amount of blaming and finger pointing will save him.”
No. He has mostly kept his mouth shut and has not cast derogatory about the women in this case. The same cannot be said of them. As far as I am concerned he has acted in a far more upstanding responsible manor than anyone else involved. The only thing I fault him for is to continue to make the 3rd party conspiracy allegations when it seems unlikely. But he may just be paranoid in this respect.
Ulla wrote:
“He should take responsibility of his own actions, but maybe he’s just as incapable of doing that as other privileged leaders in this world.””
I think Anna & Sofia should take responsibility for their actions & Anna at least is incapable of doing so. I’m willing to spell out exactly what I mean by that if you want, but this response is long enough as it is.
@admin
I honestly believe the two women did not know each other before Sofia volunteered to help out with Julian’s visit. The story of Sofia’s involvement has been consistent. The story has been that Sofia say Julian on TV & was coming into town & decided to call up to help out.
I have not seen any information to support Sofia as being involved in any of the political circles that Ann runs in, much less a political person or a feminist.
@Popcorn, Thanks for clarifying. I thought initial reports by Expressen were that they “knew” each other.
Still find it odd though how Expressen are concealing the name of these two Swedish soccer stars on trial for selling sex (one of them who plays for the national team) but blurted out Assange’s name within seconds of learning of his arrest warrant.
If its been tanslated correctly, this site , http://tinyurl.com/3ybdafh via Flashback , is reporting an Anna Ardin 31, standing for election in the Stockholm Council elections.
@admin
On the football star issue, perhaps Expressen learned their lesson? Or maybe they took a long look at the ethics of publicly printing names of people who have not been convicted of a crime?
Also, as far as the public interest goes, men picking up prostitutes is not a direct threat to the public.
Personally, I think prostitution should be legalized & regulated to eliminate abuses of an underground market. Plus, I have heard one to many arguments from women who say the feel like they should have every right to sell sex. Not my cup of tea, but to each their own.
[...] Nicholas John Mead looks at the organs behind the news: Assange has been in Sweden to arrange this deal and also agreed to write a column for centre-left Swedish newspaper Aftonbladet (the main rival to Expressen who “broke” this “story”), the first of which was due to be released today. Incidentally, Aftonbladet have decided to postpone publication in the light of the rape allegations. [...]
@baltica, Thanks for that tip. That’s the first I’ve heard she’s actually standing for election as councilor in the Bromma-Kungsholmen part of Stockholm. Interesting. For those that don’t know, Sweden is holding its national election in September.
@popcorn, But didn’t Expressen reveal the name of that Swedish police chief who was buying sex which also wasn’t a direct threat to the public?
@admin – Hmm… a police chief using prostitutes. Sounds like a conflict of interest to me.
If they announced it after conviction that would be fine. I don’t see use of prostitutes as an imminent threat that cannot wait.
Prior to conviction… that would depend if they knew it was true & also that corruption was preventing a real trial.
BTW I think it is pretty much confirmed now the Sofia Wilen is in fact the 2nd woman in this story.
Girl #2 was reported to be at the conference.
This girl in pink, seated in the front right, was taking photos all through out the conference.
Composite of photos:
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/5739/sofiawilencomposite.png
Sofia’s artist profile picture:
http://api.ning.com/files/Zcr1*tUFrS3J2UP-OaFXAgbxhgTRt6aJFflaauDHHMqjY3T1JWRgyM6l9wTgO6rrNUmA7vKAKlhj0Ieobp91gd1L-3noTjeb/sofia_colour.jpg
Just pink girl’s conference full face screen shot:
http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/7885/pinkgirlfrontview.jpg
Location of full face shot in youtube of the conference:
Profile pic of pink girl at conference:
http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/6776/pinkgirlprofile.jpg
Sofia Wilen’s profile pic (I think this was from Facebook before she deleted):
http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/690/151038717.jpg
Same bangs, same facial structure, same work, same style, glasses look the same in the blue profile pic with the thicker top.
[...] http://corruptio.blog.com/2010/08/22/maria-haljebo-kjel… / http://nicholasmead.com/2010/08/21/how-to-smear-a-hero [...]
@ admin/popcorn. The police chief in question was clearly a first class, five star asshole. He also used the most effective cover possible to hide his Mr Hyde side – he was a radical feminist! Yep, yuo better believe it! He has been making a lot of money travelling around making talks and seminars about gender issues and gender power struggle. There is a word in Swedish, a femijihadist invention, called “konsmaktsordningen” (with dots over the first o, sorry, wrong keyboard) which basically states that men always have the upper had so there must be affirmative action and gender based quotas all over the place. I have not seem any translation into any other language.
Do an experiment! Search for “genusvetenskap” in the Swedish version of Wikipedia. Then click on some of the translations to other languages. Take a look at which has the LONGEST article. Swedish, of course, because we are “more advanced” in the field, unfortunately.
Femijihadists seem to have a plan to take over society bit by bit and one way is to completely impregnate universities with their propagandistic teachings. For a politician it is very convenient to become a feminsist as it replaces any need for competence.
Ulla, if there is ever a “cult” in Sweden right now, it is radical feminism!
The idea is that gender equality is not about equal POSSIBILITIES to succeed in life with whatever you wish to do, but equality in RESULT. Hence, all facets of society must have a 50/50 gender distribution. Except, of course, the gender study departments of the universities!!!
wow, Flashback is totally a human flesh search engine!
amazing to watch the story unfold over there, piece by little piece…
Does anyone wonder who’s paying these morons? => http://goo.gl/cRg0
@Popcorn, thanks for all that info about the second woman. Looks like a pretty good match.
@boadacia, The author doesn´t seem to understand that WikiLeaks goes on with or without Assange.
Miss W is a mystery. For everyone familiar with how the Swedish social-democratic party (SAP) works, with all its tentacles of sub-organisations, party-controlled companies, party-controlled labour unions and whatnot, it seems most unthinkable that they let some stranger from the street into their very inner circles, particularly not on a day when they get to rub themselves with an international celebrity in full view of the world media.
The social-democrats are like… imagine a cross-breed of Jehova’s Witnesses and Daleks. Everything outside their own kind is The Church of Satan. If they spot any dodgy looking individual trespassing their domains, they begin to hover: “Scanning… NOT PARTY! EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!”
Miss W must have had some sort of connection to the Party to be accepted inside, if she did not have a personal relation to Miss A, which they claim she didn’t. People without a name or connection to the party couldn’t make it into the seminar even as _audience_. Miss W went straight in to the very centre. How did that happen? That’s the mystery.
I can use Occam’s Razor.
The simplest explanation for all this controversy is that Julian Assange did indeed have sex that wasn’t consensual.
Everything happening after that can be explained just by keeping that simple premise in mind. Everything.
The two women acting the way they did, their complaints about consensual sex turning non-consensual. Their fear or rage over that matter.
The Swedish officials’ reactions. The police handing the case to the public prosecutor means there was enough substance in what the women told there. The prosecutor agreeing with that in the first place. Another prosecutor seeing that there isn’t enough evidence to make the case hold in court. (Notice however that she didn’t doubt what the women told the police.) Someone in police or prosecution told Expressen. The newspaper would never accept such a story from anyone not officially authoritative enough.
That Expressen’s first story was indeed vague and strange. My first reaction to that story was that it’s so not true, can’t be true, that it’s so incomprehensible that it just must be part of a smear-campaign. After getting more and better info I changed my view. Anna Ardin corrected Expressen’s first weird story with her own information but that only means that she too saw how incorrect the first story was. Media stories must always be eyed with a critical view: who is telling this story (+ understanding his/her point of view).
Jerlerup wrote in Rebella unga s-kvinnor’s site that ”Det är som någon, jag tror det var Johanna Sjödin, sa:
Det verkar lättare att tro på gigantiska konspirationer än på att en man kan ha betett sig grisigt.”
Translation:
I think it was Johanna Sjödin who said that:
It seems to be easier to believe in gigantic conspiracies than one man having behaved like a pig.
@Ulla’s Quote = “It seems to be easier to believe in gigantic conspiracies than one man having behaved like a pig.”
Or conversely, and possibly similarly, two groupies who’s sexual/idyllic expectations didn’t quite come into fruition, even though presumably agreeing on unprotected sex, (from their non-violence statement) – and then changing their minds, after the event? How about, – “Not again thanks, and especially as you’ve run out of condoms?”
Not much sense here, I think.
Wow, I go away for a few days and look how the garden has grown.
@Ulla: Occam’s razor could definitely apply to the original events – i.e. unprotected sex – but falls way short of explaining the events that followed.
Unanswered questions persist:
1 Who leaked the story to Expressen and why?
2 Why was SW grilled for four hours by the police? And who did the interrogation? Presumably it wasn’t Celsius’ Police Chief but that’s not spelled out.
3 Whose idea was it for AA to “lawyer up” and hire an attorney – who now seems intent on scoring political points at JA’s expense?
4 And who is paying for that attorney anyway?
I too find it totally easy to accept a scenario in which JA behaved “like a pig.” Too many men think their penises give them immunity from responsibility where sex is concerned.
What troubles me in this case, however, is the sheer number of people and organizations out there who stand to benefit from JA’s publicity troubles. This is not proof of a conspiracy. But it does give one pause. Whether JA is the victim of “dirty tricks” or not there is no arguing the fact that there are hordes of folks who would be delighted to see him – and by extention Wikileaks – smeared in the press.
I still find SW to be an intriguing enigma. She seems to be the one person in this drama with nothing to gain by bringing JA down – unless she is more than she seems to be. And we won’t know the answer to who she is till she cashes in by telling all to People magazine.
Incidentally, I know nothing about Swedish law pertaining to Rape/molestation/harassment cases. Is it possible in Sweden for a woman to accuse a man of harassment and remain totally anonymous throughout the trial? Anyone?
There is something like a perfect storm happening here, wildly disparate povs coming together and conspiring against one single person, who as far as we know has done nothing wrong.
Somehow, the Disneyfied pop culture that most Western people live in (ooh! sex! naughty! tell us more!) has linked up with a hyper-PC version of feminism (he wasn’t violent but we feel violated anyway), all of which turns out to be very convenient for the most powerful mass-murdering imperial regime ever known on this planet. Whether they organized this “scandal” or not hardly matters; I’m sure they’re going to be happy to exploit it.
The prosecutors should be investigated, as should both of the accusers. And JA should have a chance to speak safely in public. As far as I can tell, he has been prevented from doing that so far, which itself is a scandal.
vincible1 asks: “4 And who is paying for that attorney anyway?”
Pro bono, perhaps. So far, anyway.
Note however that the solicitor in question, Claes Borgström, has a law firm together with Thomas Bodström (former minister of justice). Both are high-ranked members of the social-democratic peerage.
@Ratcid, There is no indication that anyone needed an invitation to attend the Assange talk. As far as I am aware, it was on a first come, first served basis. During the Q&A session afterwards, there were questions asked by The Pirate Party (who’s representative kept calling WikiLeaks “Wikipedia” by the way
), journalists and others. There is no indication that it was somekind of Social Democrat “Church of Satan only” gathering as you suggest. Wilen apparently became aware of Assange after seeing him on TV, heard about the event and managed to get in although it’s not clear exactly how. Perhaps if there’s anyone out there that was at the event, they can shed some light on how they got into the event?
@Ulla, You use Occam’s razor theory (the theory that most things can be explained by the simplest theory for those that don’t know) and conclude that “Julian Assange did indeed have sex that wasn’t consensual.” Since after much deliberation, the public prosecution have already thrown out the rape charges and reduced the “crime” to a “non-sexual molestation” then your conclusion in clearly wrong. Unless you think that the entire public prosecution knows less about the law and evidence than you do? vincible1 also makes some very good points as to why your interpreation of Occam’s theory doesn’t stand-up in this case.
vincible1@ You say”Miss W seems to be the one person in this drama with nothing to gain by bringing JA down – unless she is more than she seems to be.” I agree. I suspect that she wasn’t the one to instigate this. I think it’s more likely that she was coherced/bribed/blackmailed into doing it by the other woman. It’s only speculation though until more is known about her.
@skdadl You say: “Whether they organized this “scandal” or not hardly matters; I’m sure they’re going to be happy to exploit it. The prosecutors should be investigated, as should both of the accusers. And JA should have a chance to speak safely in public. As far as I can tell, he has been prevented from doing that so far, which itself is a scandal.” I completely agree.
Okay, Here’s yet another tabloid account of the saga. Paints JA as a total dick. Very detailed and totally one sided. The author claim’s as source material: “…The Mail on Sunday has managed to obtain copies of the women’s police statements, which are made available to the media in Sweden.” (strange grammar for a supposedly English paper)
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1307137/Supporters-dismissed-rape-accusations-WikiLeaks-founder-Julian-Assange–women-involved-tell-different-story.html?ito=feeds-newsxml#ixzz0xwyjHsS0
The author’s name is Angella Johnson. Does anyone know anything about her or what the Mail’s politics/biases are?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1307137/Supporters-dismissed-rape-accusations-WikiLeaks-founder-Julian-Assange–women-involved-tell-different-story.html?ito=feeds-newsxml
Sample of the reporting:
“…The next day Woman B tried to call him but his phone was turned off. She eventually spoke to him on the Monday when he agreed to meet her in the evening and suggested they spend the night at her flat.
She wanted to go to a hotel, but he said he would like to see her home.
Again she bought his £10 train ticket because he had no cash and said he didn’t want to use his credit card in case his movement was being tracked.
He spent most of the 45-minute journey surfing the internet on his laptop, reading stories about himself and twittering or texting on his mobile phone.
‘He paid more attention to the computer than to me,’ she said bitterly.
It was dark by the time they arrived in her suburb and the atmosphere between them had cooled.
‘The passion and attraction seemed to have disappeared,’ she said.
Most of what then followed has been blacked out in her statement, except for: ‘It felt boring and like an everyday thing.’
One source close to the investigation said the woman had insisted he wear a condom, but the following morning he made love to her without one.”
As many on this thread have indicated, the events described in the article may or may not be true. But what is glaringly missing from the whole tabloid piece is ANY inclusion of Assange’s point of view.
IMO At best, this piece is really questionable journalism. At worst? Well, you decide.
What a drama! Despite all the Mail’s efforts the “crime” still seems to boil down to this:
“The two women talked and realised to their horror and anger that they had both been victims of his charm.”
The mail is a right-leaning rag, more respectable and less yob-ish than the Sun. But a tabloid nonetheless.
Notice, too how they reporter makes a show of wanting to “protect” the identity of the women but then goes on to describe SWs bright pink sweater in a small audience.
Guess it’s all coming out now, except, as you rightly point out, Assange’s side of the story.
Other people’s sex lives — Lord, save us all. The Mail is moderately conservative trash, but it’s trash, and truly, who wants to know?
This is an incredibly silly story, and if this is what the Swedish prosecutors are running on, they are idiots. I repeat: I’m a feminist; I joined my first women’s lib group in 1968; and I think these women are giving us all a bad name.
@vincible1
the report is based on the police statements provided by the women. The information source is noted. Plenty of facts about the women’s testimony & we know it came from them.
Fact based reporting is the best kind around.
And this is rape and molestation of the women? And abuse of power by JA? What?
By their own testimony, these women were responsible for JA’s well being when he was at their houses. They owned the houses, the food, the internet
and apparently all the money. Plus he was dependant on them for organizing everything and getting him everywhere and even his personal safety.
He was obviously not into having sex with either of them (by their own testimony), very understandable considering his schedule and stress levels, and yet they managed to have sex with him in both the evening and the morning. Both of them. On consecutive days.
They gave him money and took him to dinner which they said had no strings attached, and then demanded sex for it. And when it wasn’t good enough, they took advantage of his more vulnerable situation and attacked him.
Julian Assange has been raped, molested and sexually harassed. I have no idea how this could be seen otherwise.
@ Kailey. That is exactly the conclusion we must arrive to if we use the same rules of judgment irrespective of gender. But that is sooo far from reality these days. The weaker sex, huh?
Very interesting comments. Some were hilarious and analyzed well. Miss W was set up by the same person that knew AA and was kept discrete. I find her to be distracted at the seminar. Her goal is to somehow trap JA. Both women knew what they were doing and pretended not to relate to AA.
The man in the seminar with a white shirt asked AA about Afghanistan might be a con that was staged by AA’s cousin Mattis. May be there is a military affiliation that is infiltrating the seminar. AA must be cautious as they may pretend to support him by volunteering, but their goal is to set a trap for AA.
I got confused with the names. On the last statement, I mean JA must be cautious as they may pretend to support him by volunteering, but their goal is to set a trap for AA.
My question is why did the prosecutor and other officials are on leave? Is it perhaps they want JA to linger on in Sweden? I think JA should leave and let his attorney handle in his absence.
My suggestion that American and British media should put pressure on Sweden and enter the court. I mean just bombard the court area by their presence. The Swedes will be terrified and embarrassed by the world attention.
I also read above that AA is the candidate for some election office. If this is true, then either she will get sympathy from the people to vote for her or if the foreign media could simply thwart that election would be for the betterment of Sweden.
AA seems a radical communist or nazi. AA might have support from radical fems that dominate the major positions. These women are not civil or intellect as they are part and parcel of some destruction.
I hope JA stands tall and fights like a man. If he achieved such a great heights with Wikileak internationally, we can better expect great results from now on. Fingers crossed!
Ulla,
You seem to be slightly negative about JA when we have not heard a single word of verbage against these women. What a nice gesture from his part. Men normally would retaliate, but he is respectable and might confide with his attorney.
The two females are changing their stories. It is good! They are going to hang themselves. I want them to talk as much as possible. The less JA talks the better for him.
About the consensual sex you are talking about, I know what you are referring to biologically. I think if it was non consensual and they agreed upon, then it is not a rape. The first woman mentioned that she did not want JA to stay longer is because her intention was not to be his friend or serve him. She wanted out of there as either she did not get what she was looking for or she wanted to destroy him asap. I hope JA did not reveal any information to her or she has recorded. What if she had a wire tap or a bug somewhere in the room and those Expressen or the Police Officer listened to their conversation. Then, she does not have to report. They know it all.
admin,
You stated, “journalists and others. There is no indication that it was somekind of Social Democrat “Church of Satan only” gathering as you suggest.”
raticid was referring to how social democrats which is mixed version of Jehovah witnesses and Daleks and they assume that anyone outside of their denominations are church of satan.
Kailey,
I too think that JA has been raped. These women knew that JA needed assistance and was vulnerable. They were expecting more than that and JA perhaps was returning their expectations by means of having an affair. Men know when a woman is onto them. It is sad that after all that they initiated the good samaritan gesture and then turn around and smear scandals is quite damning.
May be now they think that they are above him and are trashing full nine yard. I have heard from a colleague of mine who came on an assignment as a consultant that Scandinavian men are quite macho men and the women are subservient, but I am appalled that these women are totally nuts. I think they are village girls and they have no manners and ethics.
So far, JA has done pretty well. He knows what he was doing. It is the women that are defeated and scorned. They are simply boiling and it is the reaction. I hope the Police Officer and the Prosecutor just throws the case. I have a good feeling.
The other lady AA must be a prostitute and well known in the CIA/her cousin’s military circle. No wonder, these pros get high positions in the governments. Sorry, I am bitching here. I don’t normally do that. After all it is anonymous network.
After watching his various video appearance, I feel that he is a sheep with big brains. That said, good night! Be safe, all of you!
Celsius and Kailey,
I think Kailey is right about her analysis. Celsius, some women are dominating and aggressive. Men do get terrified of them. They wanted some favors in return and he gave. That’s all and now move on, women! No, these women wanted to pay the revenge and tie the knot somehow after the session was over. Now, they can keep JA for long in Sweden tied up rather than for him to move on. They think they own him because of their hospitality.
May be they are afraid that he will leave them or if they are sent by others to drag this to the mud, then that is another hurdle to resolve. Either way, both parties are trying to exploit JA. I hope JA gets away from their dirty tricks. Now, they are all over the news on purpose.
@Siboni
Congratulations. I think you’re the only person who has looked at who the man really is: An exceptionally nice guy. Unfortunately they can be greatly manipulated, just like exceptionally nice women can. Lambs to the slaughter all of them. A big brain does not cancel out a big heart.
IMHO I think that once he had said that he would see Ms W again he honoured that even though as she said the passion had gone. He probably realised there wasn’t actually anything they had in common. To me the account reads like he was cornered into going through with the implied promise of his stay. Christ knows enough women know that feeling.
It is not all that rare for a young woman to be so preditory. So she stalked him. He’s famous. It’s bound to happen eventually, but he’s not a rock star and he’s not used to it. When he fell off he pedestal she had put him on (as victims of stalking inevitably do) she got nasty (as stalkers inevitably do).
The stalker then talked to the other girl who is politically motivated and you’ve got a PR disaster on your hands.
Billy Connolly once said that being rich is the only comphensation there is for being famous. Fame is a curse. It attracts the attention of all the wrong people for all the wrong reasons. Remember this man, a reserved and usually very private person, who has become famous very suddenly and doesn’t have the money or experience to defend himself against the pit falls of fame like entertainers or politicians of the same calibre do.
Hell, he’s still backpacking and couch surfing while he rocks the world with the products of his intellect.
I have a female friend dealing with a stalker right now. She too is fighting the stalker’s claim that _she_ has been harrassing him! He would call her dozens of times a night and she would ignore it for as long as she could until she finally picks up the phone and abuses him and then the sneaky bastard would record it and play it for the police.
Stalkers suck.
repost (sorry if this turns up multiple times)
@Siboni
Congratulations. I think you’re the only person who has looked at who the man really is: An exceptionally nice guy. Unfortunately they can be greatly manipulated, just like exceptionally nice women can. Lambs to the slaughter all of them. A big brain does not cancel out a big heart.
IMHO I think that once he had said that he would see Ms W again he honoured that even though as she said the passion had gone. He probably realised there wasn’t actually anything they had in common. To me the account reads like he was cornered into going through with the implied promise of his stay. Christ knows enough women know that feeling.
It is not all that rare for a young woman to be so preditory. So she stalked him. He’s famous. It’s bound to happen eventually, but he’s not a rock star and he’s not used to it. When he fell off he pedestal she had put him on (as victims of stalking inevitably do) she got nasty (as stalkers inevitably do).
The stalker then talked to the other girl who is politically motivated and you’ve got a PR disaster on your hands.
Billy Connolly once said that being rich is the only comphensation there is for being famous. Fame is a curse. It attracts the attention of all the wrong people for all the wrong reasons. Remember this man, a reserved and usually very private person, who has become famous very suddenly and doesn’t have the money or experience to defend himself against the pit falls of fame like entertainers or politicians of the same calibre do.
Hell, he’s still backpacking and couch surfing while he rocks the world with the products of his intellect.
I have a female friend dealing with a stalker right now. She too is fighting the stalker’s claim that _she_ has been harrassing him! He would call her dozens of times a night and she would ignore it for as long as she could until she finally picks up the phone and abuses him and then the sneaky bastard would record it and play it for the police.
Stalkers suck.
Anonymous,
Appreciate your comments. I was told by very nice females that females are very jealous of me and to watch out. I laughed out at this warning. Now, I realize I have suffered more from the women than men. Of course, there are exceptions.
I am observant and know how women play their games, because they had ripped my life one time leaving me bleeding and helpless. I cannot discuss how they planned the game out of jealousy. It still continues, but I avoid them. I can profile them from a distance! I stay away from them and would never introduce any man I would fall in love to them.
Yes, Miss W came to me as very distracted in that video conference. To go further, did she know anyone in the room that may have followed her or is an accomplice? Also, the Expressen or someone perhaps planted Miss W. and other woman. I did not see the other woman in the conference. Why? Because she was the only person turning around her head while rest of the people in the room were serious minded. At one point, Miss W turns around twice as if to take her snapshot. Who was the photographer that took her picture? These tiny clues lead to the big picture. Perhaps, the person that took her picture might have wanted to disperse it later on as the plot thickened. The comment above states that Expressen blurted out the name of Miss W to be in the conference.
Yes, JA seemed to be simple hearted and a kind man. His goal is misunderstood by many. I think he needs to be protected and given the support to stay somewhere safe during his travel rather than take such insidious Jekyl & Hyde type of hospitality. Miss W came across as a disturbed woman who can possess multiple personality. They can only carry the persona for two days and then on the third day they become monsters in crime. A chameleon
personality.
It seems that these feminists are trying to treat men the way men may have treated in the past – a one time night stand. Men are very logical minded rather than emotional. Yes, some are, but they don’t delve on one particular segment. It is a tragedy that they are doing this to the nice people without knowing and studying the personality of the man. I somehow saw through JA and I think he reminded of myself in his characteristics and some tragedies. Not similar, but reaching to the same conclusions.
Anonymous,
This case is winnable, because JA should not give interviews to any magazine even if they offer millions. The silence is a weapon to win in this case. People cannot make a case by one sided argument. They need two to tango!
JA should state that his initial thought was to protect himself from stalkers as he was vulnerable of any attack due to the expose of Wikileak. He needs to further state that he thought that these women were Christians and went along with them, but realized that they wanted more from the relationship.
Again, men date more than one woman sometimes to select the right one. We saw the Bachelor segment how one man dates five women at one time and does not have to be emotionally tied up. His lawyer can raise that rebuttal argument.
JA also should state that there was no molestation, because these women had given him the impression that they were fine from the beginning of however the relationship proceeded. He should state that he was clear to them from the beginning. The burden of proof should fall on the lawyer in finding whether these women knew each other and confided by text message or in person. This will be damaging, because they can defend on the ground that it was premeditated rather than JA imposing his presence or actions on them.
Then, the lawyer should nail others involved and how it was handled. I think the attorney of JA should fine them enormously for defamation of conduct and heresy. This is similar to the witch hunt that took place in the U.S.
Here, in Sweden, it is leading to “Men Hunt.”
Kick their asses big time!
@Siboni – You make a lot of various conspiracies. But the only one I potentially see is two women finding out they were being juggled at the same time getting VERY angry.
I don’t care which side wins. I just want to see the truth come out & see that it is dealt with appropriately.
@ Siboni. I don’t get it. First you say JA should remain silent and then you give a bunch of suggestions to what he should say. Logic?
I agree with the silence bit. Give the two women enough opportunity and they will destroy their case. If JA blindly defends himself against something that he is not yet been accused of, he will just be accused of that as well, I think. Wait until the precise charges have been brought out in court. In the end, there may not even be much left to discuss, once more sensible people start scrutinising the case.
The following denial was posted on Daniel Assange’s (Julian’s son) weblog with regard to some “quotes” by him that have turned up in the tabloids.
http://www.lemma.org/
“My Wiki dad” needs a break, ffs
Posted On Friday, August 27th, 2010 By somnidea
“The New York Post recently published some godawful sensationalistic tripe constructed in the main by quote-mining some comments I made on a friend’s Facebook profile concerning a certain increasingly infamous family member. I’d just like to note here that the comments in question were very tongue-in-cheek and never intended to be made public like this, much less support the conclusions of the article. The NYP did not interview me or otherwise attain my consent in any way for their publication. I have much respect for my father and his cause, and these ridiculously ill-handled allegations of sexual abuse serve only to distract from the audacious awesomeness that he has actually done.
Also, some factual corrections: I have not been a student of the University of Melbourne for some time, and I am 20 years of age, not 21. The latter point is particularly hilarious given that my birth date is publicly available on my Facebook account. You know… that same account that they just quote-mined. It takes a certain level of skill to fail that much, it does. -.-”
Echoing the title of This piece, evidently Julian’s son Daniel considers him very much a hero. And if what he says is true, someone is going to a great deal of trouble to smear JA.
“quote mining?” Oh brave new world that has such concepts in it.
@Celsius Agreed!
There is nothing he could say that will not be twisted and used against him. These are the same people that demanded he come out of hiding and give interviews, then called him a megalomaniac as soon as he did.
Stick to wikileaks topics.
Actually, much as I love JA interviews, it would probably be a good idea if they instituted ‘talking heads’ in each country, people who preferably aren’t involved in any of the work but can deliver messages to the public and know the party line well enough to give interviews. There would be no point in attacking people that far removed from the organization, but it would give the media in each country a face to look at, and provide variety. But the media will attack whatever they do at this point.
What to do about the media? Hmm, if anyone’s bored we could examine the coverage, rate the bias and give them a ‘spook controlled or not’ rating
Oh yeah, Wikileaks…. I’d almost forgot about them.
Speaking of which, does anyone have a link to a good discussion blog (like this one) dedicated to the Afghan diaries?
That might be one way of neutralizing the slime: get back to discussing the import of the stuff Assange and Co. are revealing. Just a thought.
Popcorn: I am making my own analysis based on the above discussion board findings. I am appalled that you are taking one side of the issue rather than wait for JA to open up. We have not heard anything from him.
Again, in any court of law, these are purely allegations rather than case evidence. The fact that they dropped charges indicate that something is not adding up.
I am making my analysis due to the fact who JA is and what he has done to Wikileak..and how he fights for the freedom of speech.
Celsius,
I meant that he should remain silent (if you read my comments again) and not give interviews to the media and explain the details of what happened. I also meant that JA should only speak to his counsel which is kept confidential.
If he discusses further in detail and answers those tricky questions from the interviewers, then he might say something that may haunt him later. People have made mistakes out of mis-communications and have self-incriminated thus losing the case.
The media has a way of twisting the case and deciding the man’s fate prior to the judicial decision making. I want to warn out of goodness that he needs to be silent.
Celsius,
I apologize if I came across as being logical minded. I was concerned for JA, because I feel sometimes that he can be given false counsel. I wished that he would read my suggestions and be smart. Just trying to give him my two cents how he should conduct and be brave. He has nothing to fear if he knows in his conscience that he has not done anything wrong as they say.
Thank God that JA’s son, Daniel is on his father’s side. Of course, he needs to protect his dad.
The tabloids need to be sued…
Good luck on Daniel’s bold defense. After all he needs to learn from his father how to be strong. We make heroes out of our children.
Kailey,
You made a great point. The curiosity of mankind is temporary satisfaction of the feeble minded. They just needed some excitement and now it all died after reading the content.
Some have ridiculed that JA is a psy-op and a CIA and that the curtailing of the freedom of speech due to the Wikileak is causing nervous reaction that perhaps Mr. Assange was used to divert the Consitutional rights. The argument is that Pentagon would never allow leaks and if they did they might have deliberately leaked only those items that needed to be leaked.
However, we can take this leak into broader context. One, we can fight for freedom of speech and transparency in what, how, and why factors of our government’s shadowy characteristics. Secondly, we can expect repercussion or denial from the Pentagon and create a hurdle to stop the freedom of speech. If one believes ardently that JA’s course of action to create positive outcome, then enough of civilians can make it change or vice versa.
@vincible1 No, but I’m totally up for it if you want to start / find one. I haven’t had any luck myself. Maybe @admin would consider something …. ?
If we started creating blogs to discuss the content, maybe wikileaks would start linking to them and we could start bypassing the musty media.
JA should conduct live television interviews rather than in person like the one in “Frontline,” – London.
Due to Ellsberg’s bravery in exposing Pentagon papers in the past only gives me the confidence to believe in JA’s work. However, Ellsberg did face the wrath of Nixon. Woodward and Deep Throat did enough damage, but the freedom of speech and amending the First was not on the table.
I guess the times have changed. Time will tell.
Sorry for delays but was offline/busy most of yesterday. Some responses:
@Vincible 1, The Mail on Sunday is the Sunday version of the The Daily Mail. It’s aimed at “Middle England”. It’s basically a more “respectable” version of The Sun – possibly could be compared with Expressen in Sweden but maybe a bit more racist. Incidentally, I usually find its reader comments far more educated and enlightening than the articles themselves (on the online version at least)
So the Mail claims the police report has been released to Swedish media? Is this normal practice? And why are the reports not released to the public since it is they who are paying the police’s wages and not the corporate media?
I notice it says in the report that Miss W got upset because Assange was more concerned with “twittering about his day” but I didn’t know he even had, or at least used, his own Twitter account??
The conclusion is laughable: “Whatever the outcome, one thing is certain – Assange’s attempts to portray himself as an online saint, exposing the secrets of the superpowers, has been dealt a damaging blow.”
I don’t believe Assange has ever tried to portray himself as an “online saint” and as mentioned several times before, his private life has nothing to do with WikiLeaks.
@ashasekh sums it up nicely about both the Mail and the charges.
@Kailey, I don’t think we can say that “Assange was raped” but it seems clear that the women weren’t exactly fighting him off with a broomstick.
@Siboni, Don’t think you can read much into the questioned asked at the presentation. I’ve seen Assange asked a million times about Afghanistan in other interviews. Also, I’m still no accepting your claim that the Social Democrats are “Jehovah witnesses and Daleks” – I think saying stuff like that just reduces credibility to anything you say whatever your personal feelings about the Social Democrats. It’s hardly relevant to this topic either. I’m inclined to agree with you however that “Fame is a curse. It attracts the attention of all the wrong people for all the wrong reasons.” Of course, the flip side is that those who are famous are able to use their fame to their own advantage sometimes too. Maybe a little bit of both has gone on here and that’s hardly surprising – all that are involved in this case are human after all. BTW, No one is taking sides before JA ha spoken – this is all speculation based on what is known so far. As Popcorn says, the most important thing is not to take sides but that an open debate helps the truth to come out at the end of it all. BTW, One small request – If you could post comments in one comment, rather than making several different ones one after the other, it would make it easier to follow your thoughts (and also not look like spamming
)
@Popcorn, I think you make a good summary of Siboni’s various theories.
@vincible1, I completely agree. I suspect most of the discussion on the Afghan War Diaries took place on the newspaper websites – like The Guardian – that published them recently. However, debate on that, rather than continued speculation into this sordid affair would be much more productive. I actually highlighted one of the most interesting but least publicized revelations from the diaries here:
http://nicholasmead.com/2010/08/13/why-the-public-remains-obamas-biggest-enemy/
@Kailey, any ideas or projects that encourage more debate on WikiLeaks issues is worthy of taking forward in my mind.
@admin The ‘Assange was raped’ statement was not meant to be taken seriously (hence the smiley), just to point out that he is in a far better position to make the claim than they are, considering balance of power, relative eagerness, etc.. In a normal world, of course, it sounds like two consenting adults.
There are a great many undiscussed papers on Wikileaks, including the recent CIA paper, that could be reviewed for possible unseen relevance. Or for my interest, if anyone knows any place that discusses everything on Canada. Many blogs and news sites have posted articles, but none that I have found seem to have a community like this that has joined in on the fact finding and discussion.
That would, of course, be all credit to @admin for the great research and moderating. Thank you.
@ Kailey. I could see the irony in your “JA was raped” comment. If you would change gender of the people involved you would have a poor defenseless woman being totally dependent on a man for food and housing, so that she was “forced” to accept sex in order not to be thrown out on the street. In that sort of distressed situation, she would have to obey his every whim and fancy… etc.
That, I think, is how radical feminists would spin it, if roles were the opposite…
On the other hand, in all fairness; a woman jumping from one bed to the other with different men like that would be called a slut, which JA has not been called so far, as far as I know.
I would never deny anyone the right to be a slut if they wish, though… man or woman.
@Kailey, funny you should mention Canadian docs. I was just thinking this morning that it would be such a good thing if someone — a civil servant, a journalist — would give up on our MPs and get at least some of our secret Afghanistan documents to WL.
A few journalists seem to be hinting that the government knew that the NDS (Afghan security police) were being used to launder prisoners through to the Americans for interrogation — see James Travers and Thomas Walkom at the Toronto Star, eg. Somebody has seen something. But the opposition are just not willing to press ahead with this scandal — either they’re not smart enough, or they’re afraid of an election, or more likely both.
@skdadl It’s not just Afghanistan – Canadians are so used to not hearing the truth we just ignore everything, but I think there is a growing national stomach ache over everything that seems to be going on between us and the US. Passing prisoners to known torturers like the US is one, but there is so much more.
Remember when Stevie cameron wrote “On the Take” (1994) and it was all but suppressed by Lord Conrad Black’s media empire? The problem with anything in Canada is that it is all controlled by 10 people so no one listens at all to the Toronto-centric media. IMO we need a site to bypass them and discuss leaks properly and without an agenda, then more people would leak. Right now, why bother?
Re. the opposition, our version of democracy is a choice between three “alternatives” who all bow to the same gods. At least IMO. More information would definitely help clarify if I’m correct or not.
admin,
I am quite surprised by your lack of comprehensive skills. You need to check the earlier post by raticid. I was referring to his comments and explaining to you because you misquoted raticid’s post.
Here again for you to read:
Raticid
Miss W is a mystery. For everyone familiar with how the Swedish social-democratic party (SAP) works, with all its tentacles of sub-organisations, party-controlled companies, party-controlled labour unions and whatnot, it seems most unthinkable that they let some stranger from the street into their very inner circles, particularly not on a day when they get to rub themselves with an international celebrity in full view of the world media.
The social-democrats are like… imagine a cross-breed of Jehova’s Witnesses and Daleks. Everything outside their own kind is The Church of Satan. If they spot any dodgy looking individual trespassing their domains, they begin to hover: “Scanning… NOT PARTY! EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!”
admin, I hope you can comprehend the passage.
admin & popcorn,
I realized that you folks do not read the above comments and follow up the feedbacks. Again, you have made a mistake on the “Fame is a Curse.” I did not say that. Isn’t this so typical of what we are discussing here about JA’s case and how media tarnishes and exaggerates the events and flip-flops the statments that you have likely made on my reference.
For your information here’s what anonymous wrote and if you read carefully you may find it was his quote on “Fame is a Curse.”
Anonymous
repost (sorry if this turns up multiple times)
@Siboni
Congratulations. I think you’re the only person who has looked at who the man really is: An exceptionally nice guy. Unfortunately they can be greatly manipulated, just like exceptionally nice women can. Lambs to the slaughter all of them. A big brain does not cancel out a big heart.
IMHO I think that once he had said that he would see Ms W again he honoured that even though as she said the passion had gone. He probably realised there wasn’t actually anything they had in common. To me the account reads like he was cornered into going through with the implied promise of his stay. Christ knows enough women know that feeling.
It is not all that rare for a young woman to be so preditory. So she stalked him. He’s famous. It’s bound to happen eventually, but he’s not a rock star and he’s not used to it. When he fell off he pedestal she had put him on (as victims of stalking inevitably do) she got nasty (as stalkers inevitably do).
The stalker then talked to the other girl who is politically motivated and you’ve got a PR disaster on your hands.
Billy Connolly once said that being rich is the only comphensation there is for being famous. Fame is a curse. It attracts the attention of all the wrong people for all the wrong reasons. Remember this man, a reserved and usually very private person, who has become famous very suddenly and doesn’t have the money or experience to defend himself against the pit falls of fame like entertainers or politicians of the same calibre do.
Hell, he’s still backpacking and couch surfing while he rocks the world with the products of his intellect.
I have a female friend dealing with a stalker right now. She too is fighting the stalker’s claim that _she_ has been harrassing him! He would call her dozens of times a night and she would ignore it for as long as she could until she finally picks up the phone and abuses him and then the sneaky bastard would record it and play it for the police.
Stalkers suck.
I hope this clarifies!
admin., & popcorn,
I think once again you have not read the feedback from Anonymous who in fact wrote about “Fame is a curse,” and I was simply elaborating on this comment. Please do not attack without reading first the above comments. Thanks!
Here’s what anonymous wrote:
Anonymous
repost (sorry if this turns up multiple times)
@Siboni
Congratulations. I think you’re the only person who has looked at who the man really is: An exceptionally nice guy. Unfortunately they can be greatly manipulated, just like exceptionally nice women can. Lambs to the slaughter all of them. A big brain does not cancel out a big heart.
IMHO I think that once he had said that he would see Ms W again he honoured that even though as she said the passion had gone. He probably realised there wasn’t actually anything they had in common. To me the account reads like he was cornered into going through with the implied promise of his stay. Christ knows enough women know that feeling.
It is not all that rare for a young woman to be so preditory. So she stalked him. He’s famous. It’s bound to happen eventually, but he’s not a rock star and he’s not used to it. When he fell off he pedestal she had put him on (as victims of stalking inevitably do) she got nasty (as stalkers inevitably do).
The stalker then talked to the other girl who is politically motivated and you’ve got a PR disaster on your hands.
Billy Connolly once said that being rich is the only comphensation there is for being famous. Fame is a curse. It attracts the attention of all the wrong people for all the wrong reasons. Remember this man, a reserved and usually very private person, who has become famous very suddenly and doesn’t have the money or experience to defend himself against the pit falls of fame like entertainers or politicians of the same calibre do.
Hell, he’s still backpacking and couch surfing while he rocks the world with the products of his intellect.
I have a female friend dealing with a stalker right now. She too is fighting the stalker’s claim that _she_ has been harrassing him! He would call her dozens of times a night and she would ignore it for as long as she could until she finally picks up the phone and abuses him and then the sneaky bastard would record it and play it for the police.
Stalkers suck.
admin, I am sorry I posted several times because I wanted to address each feedback with their names.
I get a feeling that you are against Assange and using smear tactics. I hope you do not distort the truth to patronize AA and SW and Expressen. Is it possible that this blog is created for the other parties to read in Sweden? I am confused.
I am not going to contribute here, because I find this is just a smear tactics for AA’s accusers to read (perhaps?).
Good bye!
Corrections: Sorry, I meant JA’s accusers to read (perhaps?)
@Siboni I think you misunderstand the purpose of this forum. I believe admin, and many of the contributors are trying to look at the real evidence objectively. Of course there have been some ill-considered, or factional posts. But the majority I would say are trying to remain neutral.
Seems to be pretty stagnant at the moment on the news front? (Unless someone knows differently?) I wonder if Julian will be allowed to leave Sweden?
@siboni: lol, i think most people here do not intend to *smear* Assange, but are patiently hoping the truth will emerge.
An interesting outline was posted today on Geert Lovink’s blog, though seems like was written mostly before all this scandal blew up:
http://bit.ly/cKCalV
He does allude to whole brouhaha: “Sovereign hacker Julian Assange is the identifying figurehead of Wikileaks, whose notoriety and reputation very much merges with his own, blurring the distinction between what it does and stands for and Assange’s (rather agitated) private life and (somewhat unpolished) political opinions.”
Pun very much intended! => “Breaking news!!!” Hahahahaha, I cannot stop laughing! JA has been heard by the police, and now it seems that we finally know what he has been accused of. This is just so f-ing stupid I have to ask you to brace yourselves for this one. He is accused of breaking the condom on purpose! (OK, lay down on your back on the floor and the cramps in your stomach may go away evebtually. I am sorry to cause you that pain, but hey, what can I say? This is what I read in the news. You may want to run this through a translator if you don’t know Swedish, and you will get yourself a few more laughs, do a few face palms, etc. From Expressen’s main competitor; http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article7699790.ab
In Expressen’s piece about it there is no mention of the broken rubber; http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/1.2116153/assange-forhordes-av-polisen
They seem to try to pretend that this is still about an actual crime. Their initial world scoop is crashlanding like a, i don’t know, a broken condom full of air, maybe? They want to try and delay the embarassment as long as they can I guess.
So, JA is not even accused of removing the condom on purpose, but breaking it on purpose. How do you do that? And how will AA be able to prove the “criminal intent” (I am laughing again, got to pull myslef together here…) So the turkey became a chicken, became a feather, became… well what shall we call it now?
This is just toooo funny!
OK, I am back! Can’t be mad too long by your love/hate relationship toward JA.
@exile:
This whole fiasco about JA having some good moments with these females has been carried off too far judgmentally. The folks in Sweden are acting as if they are saints. They never had any affairs! The civilization just started off with Women A & B.
I don’t believe anybody is looking at it objectively and if they did they wouldn’t jump to such a conclusion and allege it as a rape. I think there is a misconception about the relationship and the Prosecutors’ are incompetent to say the least. Expressen is making money out of this illogical story.
@ashasekh: What do you call it, then? I think most people are competitive and do not like JA’s guts and hidden aura of brilliancy in defying the powers of this world. There is a time to be slack and time to have fun and there is a time to be serious. Even King Solomon had 1000 wives, but yet he was a man of wisdom and handled the affairs brilliantly.
I think most people do not have a vision. It is self-centered and therefore find something to chew on so they can bring down other people desperately. It shows their true color of loyalty. JA has done no harm to them or crossed them, but just because of these silly women who pretended to be self-righteous in their eyes are now blowing it up for him.
End of case!
I think the Woman # B, is smitten by JA in that she is constantly reminiscing about the event on the “How he fed her with a cheese” and blah, blah, is because she wants the world to know about this romance. This is not a rape; this woman is a psycho! The encounter gone bad!
This woman will hang herself soon if she cannot find people to disclose her affair. Lock her up in some room!
Woman # B, is weighing on JA’s feelings whether it was real or fake. All I read here is that JA was so tired and fell asleep and kept her as a watch dog, lol. He simply ignored her as he was twittering! What else? He went after the other woman as he faked all along. There was nothing taking place. He was having a causal affair with a doll.
Now, woman B is spreading the details prior to the case is absurd!
Glad to hear her talk, because the more she talks the more she looks stupid and the case will be closed.
The moment the Prosecutor says, “Case Closed,” she might have fits and faints as JA is finally out of her stronghold. Do I make sense? Or the Swedes need more grilling?
This is a comical show!
I just checked wikileak and found the new server room to be quite enchanting! It looked like a fairy land…Santa Claus coming to Sweden! Or was it this way in the ancient lands of the Isle’s? I hope I could go on a honey moon to that bunker area deep down 30 km. (enjoy the humour).
I heard the Swedes are stuck up! They can’t have sense humor because they are rotting in the ice for too long. They are depressed maniacs! Like Woman A & definitely B!
The sunshine JA came along and brightened their lives. Oh, how sad! It died as the even day!
@ Siboni. No, no broken hearts, just… hahaha, just read above…(still having cramps!)
@ Siboni, Swedes have no sense of humor? You gotta be kidding me! Read my comment above, I tell you!
Celsius,
Thanks for the hilarious update! This is ludicrous!
Gee, this is too good to be true! The whole sex game gone awry for woman # B and as well A. These women have totally embarrassed the Swedish judicial system. I think they might be reprimanded and sent to a Psych therapy! This allegation is serious and I would like to know how they are going to finalize. Expressen is in deep waters!
I get a feeling this was staged by AA as she is politically motivated and they simply didn’t have a plan how to smear JA. They are bringing such silly allegations to embarrass him worldwide or weltweite.
Celsius,
I find your comments brilliant! You write so well and I read all the above comments, they were hilarious. You made a great case. I might look for it soon and post it once again. I am a student of Criminal Justice graduate specializing with my thesis soon in profiling and have an undergrad in Psych. I like to profile and always say to people that Sherlock stated to Holmes that “all evidence is in the environment and all you have to do is look around, even the tiniest clue!”
I am here trying to solve this silly case! Sorry!
Yes, I read your above post and I simply was in a shock! I just laughed when I read Chen’s post about the Cheese and how he slept for 20 minutes and she was watching. I feel sorry for her! I think she is crying and feel bad!
I say that they have no sense of humour in the sense because of the lousy weather and people can get delusional and depressed! They have good mood swings!
I got the gist of your post. Yes, it is hilarious to pin point on the rubber being broken or done on purpose. What was she doing just checking on his rubber?
Celsius, what do you mean by consensual sex? Does this mean it was mutually agreed upon? I can be dumb sometimes in this terminology!
@ Sibuni. As the awful male chauvinist pig I am, consensual sex means to me that the woman shuts up and puts up and makes me feel good. Nah, not really… If a woman shows disinterest in the sex, I lose interest real quick myself too. So the problem has never occured to me that it even exists.
In this case, it has already been determined that the sex itself was consensual. (Except of course by the idiot lawyer of AA, Claes “No Balls” Borgström – well known femijihadist and best buddy/business partner with Thomas “Stasi” Bodström, former Minister of “Justice”, and in my opinion the most dangerous man in Sweden, with an eye on dismantling democracy altogether… different story, same morons…)
So what it has boiled down to at present is molestation.
So, is it molestation if the condom breaks? Intentionally? Unintentionally? And how to prove it, one way or the other? Is it a crime to use (with or without intention) a low grade rubber that may break more easily?
I think, as I have thought the whole time, that this will end up in a little puff of steam, when the last little drop of substance in this case does its final phase change and all that is left is a little more moisture in the air. Pfffttt… that’s it.
Will the women be charged for their blatant misuse of public funds for their private vendetta? I should hope so, but the hope is very small. They will get away with it, if you want my sage wisdom on that. So will Expressen, I think. The whole system in Sweden is so infested with people who have been trained in femijihadism throughout their whole university studies, and people who replace competence with allegiance to the ruling femina-i (the z in there is not allowed:-)) dogma that, well, they will get away with it. I HOPE I AM WRONG FOR THE FIRST TIME in my predictions about this case. (Never believed the spook angle, never believed it was rape or even a sexual crime of any kind…)
So, it will be interesting to see what comes next! It should be a lot of fun to watch the shit distribute itself after the encounter with the fan!
I’m Swedish so excuse my English.
Well, this is what happens when an internationally famous alpha male goes to bed with radical feminists, one of them is a Christian socialist to sport, without understanding the political climate in the country he visits. To be honest, in Sweden there are some rules to understand and they are:
a) Whatever a female claims is always the truth, especially when it comes to moral issues like sex. Thus, a visit to the police with a half told story is more than enough to issue an arrest warrant on the highest level of suspicion.
b) The moral laws are very wide in Sweden. In fact they are so wide that Sweden is now in the top list over countries when it comes to reported sexual abuse and rape. Add to that a well spread idea that females are victims no matter what has happened and there you go.
c) Women who abuse these facts take no risks at all. They can freely smear anyone without risking any legal consequences of their acts.
To sum it up, I’m not a really surprised over what happened and I’m also convinced that the two ‘girls’ knew exactly what they were doing. They simply wanted Julian Assange to test himself for STD’s and when he refused they decided to take revenge. The only bit that surprises me a bit is the fact that the female prosecutor used the business as usual approach on Julian Assange. Not very smart.
/Rickard
[...] http://nicholasmead.com/2010/08/21/how-to-smear-a-hero/ [...]
STOPPA PRESSARNA!
Above is the link to a HUGE post in english telling the story of the entire Assange-affair from our perspective.
We are a small blog in Sweden but we have extensive knowledge of the internal politics regarding this case. Earlier we only wrote in swedish.
Since Assange and Wilileaks do not understand our language I did this lates post in English.
I have been told Mr Assange himself has read it and now understand the situation better
Erik
@ Rickard. You are absolutely right (I am also a Swede). The concept of “safe sex” is a totally different thing in Sweden than everywhere else. For most people it is a medical term, but in Sweden it is a LEGAL term. Safe sex means that you better make sure the woman doesn’t sue you afterwards, and if you pay for sex, make sure nobody finds out! And if you read some strange foreign comics with naked females who look a bit young, burn them now or erase them from your hard drive! Otherwise you will be accused of having child pornography. (Don’t ask me how you sexually molest a cartoon!) You think I am joking don’t you? NOT! It happened not so long ago… this summer… in Sweden… (tear rolling down my cheek – thinking of the terrible state of my old home country… could I ever go back without feeling imprisoned?)
Celsius:
That idiotic cartoon case here in Sweden is not about molesting cartoons themselves, Its used as an “offensive to minorities” law The argument actually was even more stupid than claiming the cartoons were molested
They said the cartoons “were offensive to children and CHILDHOOD”
The violantion was not against any person but agains children as an ideological construct abstract.
I am not kidding, its true!
Basically we had one crazy case regarding cartoons, then we had the almost as crazy but even larger Assange safe-sex-rape case and we earlier had the case where secretary of labor Littorin was accused of hiring a callgirl years ago, thus never proven accusations themselves caused harm enough for him to resign to protect the family.
@ Erik. “That idiotic cartoon case here in Sweden is not about molesting cartoons themselves.” I know that, I was ironic… it is obviously impossible to molest a cartoon, so I tought the irony would work. No?
With regard to Littorin, I have very little sympathy for him or his party. A man who buys his academic credentials at a phony university and a party with a Minister of Justice that suggests sending purple envelopes to SUSPECTED sex buyers ” so their children will see what kind of father they have” doesn’t f-ing deserve any better!!! Littorin got his “purple envelope” in the media, and his party deserved the scandal for dismantling liberty in Sweden.
And in general, political figures, be it Littorin, Ardin, or Assange, must realise and accept that they will be publicly scrutinised more than the anonymous masses. Hypocrisy will be punished in the eyes of the public. Making it illegal for you or me to buy sexual services will not look good if they do it themselves.
Sorry for getting slightly OT here…
I’m well aware about the Simon Lundström case. Even more fun, did you now that Dagens Nyheter (for non Swedes; a daily newspaper with good resume) was reported for child pornography when they published these Shōnen Ai pictures:
http://www.dn.se/kultur-noje/nyheter/gunilla-herlitz-det-finns-ingen-grund-for-polisanmalan-1.1152010
Well, Sweden has a unique political climate where the extreme left wing, feministic political agenda has gone all the way into our bedrooms.
/Rickard
Erik,
Good job on Aktivarum. Some other comments on quotes I’ve seen at your article and on the NM Twitter feed.
‘Since they have not yet talked to Assange the dismissal of the warrant must be made based on the same information the warrant was made upon.’
Actually no. Kjellstrand never saw the interrogation protocol. Finné was the first. Kjellstrand based her arrest in absentia solely on a vocal report from the police. Read Erik’s article. 1:40 of interrogation with second girl was taking place – Kjellstrand didn’t see it. She rushed out to issue an arrest in absentia without even waiting for the testimony of the girl who was part of the only alleged rape case. [Says quite a bit about Kjellstrand IMO.]
‘Welcome to Sweden, Mr Assange. You should know that paying for sex is illegal here, and if you don’t pay, you’ll be accused of rape and molestation.’
Keeper.
‘I have been an active feminist over 30 years and such claim even makes me wanna twist your ear.’
Another.
Also want to point out today’s and yesterday’s news:
- WL will be partly hosted by Bahnhof inside the bunker in Vitabergsparken.
- JA applied for work/residence in Sweden same day he traveled to Enköping.
- Silbersky says rape nonsense will not affect JA’s feelings about this application.
- JA was interrrogated by the police yesterday evening at HQ on Kungsholmen of all places. Aja baja.
Finally: our opinion.
- JA and WL are putting too much faith in Sweden all around. We know too little about Iceland but with that new MMI passed into law unanimously, it would seem a far safer place to be. Also: fewer femi-jihadists.
- Henrik Pontén tried to bust Karlung before by planting evidence on Bahnhof servers and Karlung was lucky he could find out what was going on.
- Håkan Roswall waltzed right into PRQ in 2006 and took away all the servers.
- Things are simply ‘too tight’ in Sweden. Barring evidence Iceland is more dangerous, it would seem Sweden is not a good place for either JA or WL to be.
- There is still too much conjecture here. Few of the supposedly secured details would pass the Hercule Poirot test: it’s mostly hearsay and almost never true facts corroborated by at least two completely independent sources.
- We simply still do not see JA wanting to bed AA. The signals are pretty obvious. That very story still has something that is just not right.
@Erik – Thank you for the link to Aktivarum site. In particular, your post in English was much appreciated. Trying to discern the truth of what is happening around the world is difficult enough. Being at the mercy of gossip tabloids and “Google translate” makes the task almost impossible.
Your summation of the case is one of the most complete I have seen to date. I hope you will consider making further posts in English as more facts in the case are unearthed.
Thanks again.
@Celsius: agree with you re not returning. The place has gone 150% bonkers. Ha det/Cheers.
@admin
‘the department that Kjellstrand’s husband presides over’
No one said he ran Ask’s department. The original ref is here (corruptio.blog.com).
http://bit.ly/dtRjJU
‘Maria Häljebo Kejllstrand är gift med Per Kjellstrand, han jobbar på justitiedepartementet med Beatrice Ask.’
That’s it. No one knows what his title is there. If you do, then you can perhaps post a link. Cheers.
This Press Release just identifies him as a “Special Adviser.”
http://www.sweden.gov.se/sb/d/10634/a/116871
Could mean just about anything.
Good night all.
@Rick, thanks
The post was a summary of everything happening when it was happening. Of course as such, its not complete. We now know more than we did when it was written. Also, I wanted Mr Assange himself to have been able to read the text and understand what he was accused of and why it was this way in Sweden. For this reason there was a small time window. At the time I was writing the analysis, new information constantly arrived.
Hi folks! Read all your recent post! Swedes are improving in their writing. Good job! I can understand better today!
Sometimes, I have to translate German to English or vice versa via babel fish and it just loses its essence. Please learn English! It is an easy language!
Celsius, humorous post about the whole sex regulation fiasco in Sweden. Poor Assange, he must be terrified about this nightmare. It is traumatizing after having such a good time with these two women and then to realize that they are indeed not what they portrayed. That is betrayal! Their mens rea and actus rea is criminal! Perido!
I kind of pondered about the mindset of the Swedish feminazis and found it one sided. The law cannot be called a law on one side approach. We decide the case on Mens Rea and Actus Rea to sentence a person. In JA’s case there is no mens rea to harm these women whatsoever. May be the women and Expressen might have played the mischief to hang JA on their term. They knew very well that JA is an OZ and he may not know the laws of Sweden.
Secondly, I am quite appalled at the moral issue that the Socialist Democratic left claims to portray on sex or other issues. If these women AA and woman B are from the Christian organization, then they have broken the law of chasing a man and committing fornication before God and man. What about these laws? I think there is a double standard on the part of the socialist democratic movt. Also, I have heard that if these women belong to Jehovah witnesses, they belong to a cult which has a twisted doctrine and I think they practice polygamy. They are very disturbed people. In the U.S, statistically they have low numbers of participants.
I hope Sweden changes the laws on minor issues with regards to paying money and/or how the act was conducted. I believe the paying money is prostitution and that should be condemned if they want to apply moral standards. On the other hand, if there was a consensual sex, I think the issue about whether to use precautions should not be a matter of legal adjudication or the requirements of the courts. If these laws are such, then any woman can trap a man and create havoc as they did to Assange.
However, Assange is a foreign civilian and on those grounds he might have protection from Australian govt. I am not sure how that works!
I think this too will pass as the Swedish judicial system and the general populace might ponder on their clumsy legalities to have affected the outsiders (I mean foreign population), and the men of Sweden in general. I for one, believe that Swedish Govt. need to impose laws in fairness.
Rickard,
Whatever happened between JA and them, they should have kept it private, because these minor issues are of no significance. This sounds petty that these women were blowing out of proportion. After all, they were friends and then became enemies for something tiny shows they are incompatible and are not tolerant.
On the other hand, one might predict that there was a bigger plot within this small plot.
And now the rape case is reopened again. This is getting ridicilous…
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/09/01/sweden.assange/index.html
Siboni,
I agree and so does the legal system here in Sweden, obviously. However, if a woman wants to press charges here in Sweden they can do it without risking anything. The person accused at the hand will be a molester/rapist in the public eyes even if he is cleared of all charges. I’m pretty sure this was exactly what these ‘girls’ had in mind when they walked into the police station. Especially given girl AA’s background – a Christian socialist and radical feminist that has been working with issues like this ‘professionally’ on a well known Swedish university.
You know, the Assange case is the big exception. Assange is famous and the truth will be told sooner or later. If you replaced Assange with any other male without fame I’m pretty sure the story had been completely different and that the ‘girls’ had succeeded with their intentions one way (condemned rapist in court) or another (condemned rapist in the public eyes).
/Rickard
[...] will our international visitors think of [...]
Rape – not rape – rape not rape!… anyone else think this is getting ridiculous?
1st September Update: Swedish public prosecutors change their mind yet again and have decided to investigate Assange for rape.
Will try to respond to some of the comments over the past few days shortly.
PS Thanks to Erik at Aktivarium and anonymous for the earlier update on this – I only just noticed them.
We (Aktivarum) do all our updates on this in english now cause this is clearly something of interest to the world. Rape-politics in Sweden were bad but before this is insane now, its as political as terrorist-trials.
Also in case people missed it: When we analysed the situation and made a summary in english
Mr Assange himself read it.
We need more people to read it and support our ability to change the crazy rape-politics of Sweden.
http://aktivarum.wordpress.com/2010/08/31/the-entire-assange-case-from-swedish-perspective-analysis-by-aktivarum/
Wow, this case is getting even more crazy. What kind of system lays charges, retracts them, and then brings them again? Totally crazy. Outside of who did what in this case, it seems to point that Sweden needs a serious reevaluation of how such cases are handled.
Wow. Sweden is now losing it’s reputation as that great socialist idyll.
We actually need this I am afraid.
Sweden have during a long time been obsessed with political correctness, what is being shown and the reality are distanced more and more.
This is not the first crazy case, it just happened to be an international celebrity this time.
Maybe some of the so-called feminists in Sweden need a good holiday in Kabul teaching the women of the Taliban how their men should handle a condom, and all about correcting their perceptions of male/female interactions? It’s like a puppet-show of extremes.
This saga of Assange presumably purposely popping his condoms and having no respect for the ladies, is downright laughable, even if there is any truth in all we read. (which is seriously in doubt)
I look forward to the next Frankie Boyle script, based on the story. I’m sure the Swedish women would love him!
I think the case is still just being investigated (on ever-shifting grounds) — ie, charges haven’t been laid. But it is certainly becoming a major smear campaign, just as admin’s title for this thread says. The Swedish prosecutors are actively contributing to a trial of Assange by gossip and in the press, and this latest twist raises again the question of political pressure.
Does anyone know whether Assange is free to travel if he has not yet been charged? God, what an awful situation.
Now the swedish press are putting the lid on… they are removing the blog links for the articles after too many blogs openly expressing anger against how Assange is treated.
I will make proof and post on the blog
The scary thing now is that they may want to save face at any cost and try to create a case out of nothing. For each twist and turn in this rollercoaster, the stakes get higher and higher. And JA also becomes the bat, not just the battered.
Weird situation indeed…
We need some international media…. anyone know any good large english speaking blogs to post on to create a fuss?
@Erik: I think you’ve been spot on with everything.
Marianne Ny, Erika Lejnefors, Eva Finné, Maria Kjellstrand: don’t they have any male prosecutors in Sweden? 6-1. Jules is outnumbered.
We were thinking of returning briefly next year but now we’re going to rethink our decision. The place is just too batshit insane.
Erik: we’ll assist in any way we can. Go to our contact page (About->Contact) and contact us if you want. We can’t think of any influential international blogs offhand but perhaps we can assist you in some other way.
@ Rick. Och den värsta kärringen av dom alla heter Claes Borgström! > Sorry for going native…
What I am trying to say is that the two women’s attorney is also one of the femijihadists, if not the worst one of them all, and he is a traitor to his gender, if you want to put it that way. Not a man, anyhow.
Yes, I am ranting, but what is left to do now… tired… desillusioned… Well, at least I don’t live there. Not right now, anyway.
What a mess. Assange is now under investigation again. The only conclusion to this is that:
a) The public prosecutor, Marianne Ny, at Utvecklingscentrum want’s to try a completely new legal approach to the term rape. I.e. extend the laws with a new interpretation. God knows where this may end up. It could become nasty for every male in Sweden.
b) The prosecutor at, Marianne Ny, Utvecklingscentrum want’s save of Maria Häljebo Kjellstrand’s (the prosecutor who started this mess) and the Swedish judicial system by indirectly claiming that this is not a clear case at all.
/Rickard
Oh now it looks familiar.
This is just a case of harrassment and intimidation by the state. The methods are surprisingly ordinary but he is a trouble-maker and like any other trouble-maker they’re just going to throw anything they can at him to bully him into silence and punish him. It won’t stop Wikileaks because WL has been structured to avoid such tactics landing on all supporters at once, but they probably are hoping to intimidate other members. This was a tactic discussed in the CIA leaked document about how to destroy Wikileaks.
Anybody who knows what it’s like to be targetted by a bureaucracy because they didn’t know or care about when to keep their mouth shut will be familiar with this.
@Celsius: Absolut. Han gillar Gudrun Schymans ‘man tax’? Hallo?
Per Celsius: it’s actually 7-1 (or 8-1) against JA because Borgström is the biggest femi-jihadist of them all – bigger than AA. Borgström made a career out of echoing the causes of the Swedish femi-jihadists. He was once the ‘JÄMO’ (ombudsman for equality). He supports Gudrun Schyman’s ‘man tax’ in Sweden to help offset the social costs of men abusing women.
A personal comment: I’ve been twice the victim of female violence (which caused bloodshed in the one case) and surveys show that women abuse men as much or more than the other way around. Yet no one wants to talk about that. And of course there’s no proposition for a ‘woman tax’ – Gudrun Schyman would lose all her support if she so much as mentioned such a thing.
Borgström has a law firm today together with Thomas Bodström who helped orchestrate the bust of The Pirate Bay at the behest of the Bush White House and the ‘MAFIAA’. Bodström also is very obsessed with data retention and general surveillance. Bodström is a former minister of justice. He too lacks a degree in law – and yet co-founded a law firm? Go figure.
At the time of his appointment to the former cabinet under Göran Persson, Bodström’s only credit was his father had been active in Persson’s party – he wasn’t even a member himself!
So Sweden has now had two ministers of justice in row who fully lack credentials in law.
Sweden has long been a ‘föregångsland’ – a futuristic pioneer prototype of a system people have looked up to and wanted to emulate. That’s gone now. We’d planned to visit the country this year or next but are surely not going to do that in the current climate. The place has gone batshit insane.
A lot of people have seen this coming but it’s customary to not talk about it too much in some circles.
Jules is General Custer. Sweden is the laughing stock of the world.
Truthfully I don’t want to travel anywhere right now. People see a Swedish passport and they’re going to sneer and laugh. Remember what Steve Arlo told Daryl Zero?
@ Rickard. Looking at your a) scenario, I kind of lose sense of reality here. It is really scary. If that is the way it is, JA has apparently become the feminazi judicial guinaepig. Is this the legal version of making soap from your body and blankets from your hair? (Sorry for the brutal associations, but this does send shivers down my spine now.)
Also I am gonna update with the story about Goran Lindstrom… he actually was one of the worst Radical feminist seminar holders we had…..
Privately he bought sex and commited rapes, real violent rapes.
@Rickard: I think you might be onto something here. Ny wants to save face for her office. But she’s just making matters even worse. We know almost nothing but we know the following (kudos to Erik).
1. JA has been in Sweden.
2. JA was invited to hold a speech by AA.
3. AA and ‘T20′ (SW) contacted the Klara police on Friday.
4. The police contacted Kjellstrand at 17:00 that day.
5. The interrogation of T20 hadn’t completed.
6. That took until 18:40 – another 1:40.
7. Only then would Kjellstrand have underlag to assess the case.
8. But Kjellstrand went ballistic, issued an arrest warrant ‘in absentia’ on ‘sannolika skäl’ (probable cause) without waiting for the protocol of the interrogation of T20.
9. Kjellstrand’s office then corroborated all these details for Expressen who somehow got the story this early on.
I think we have a need to pause right there. (I’m not sure there’s a jail cell dark enough for Kjellstrand.) The question is whether Ny is still playing ‘PR doctor’. She’s doing a bang-up job of it in any case.
OMG what a weird day. All of us have to personally go on with our lives but this is totally crushing on so many levels and in so many different ways. I am really ashamed of my country. Really totally ashamed.
@ Rick. And Gudrun likes to cheat on her taxes. Maybe that’s her way of creating a ‘man tax’ by default, by cheating on her own. It’s OK, she’s a woman :-/ But she still cannot get away from the high taxes taxes on the booze, hrrhrrhrrr!
And Rick, I think I did a similar exposé of the B&B law firm and all that earlier on in this thread, but it was way up there, so a repetition doesn’t hurt. Can’t even find it myself anymore. Plus yours is a little varied compared to mine. They are all part of the femijihadist power structure where allegiance to the dogma replaces competence. And gets you ahead in politics and public administration.
Everyone’s seen this (Mail Online)?
http://bit.ly/bsRjRz
@Celsius: yes she does! She ran up incredible taxi bills – like this Federley – and said she couldn’t take the commuter to the airport as she needed the time to work – that it was more peaceful in the taxi. That went down really well. (Taxis are very expensive in Sweden.)
To everyone: I want to know – especially from Swedes familiar with the law – if it is possible for the Swedish media to legally be given copies of a förundersökningsprotokoll. This sounds very strange to me.
To everyone: what do you think about the ‘authenticity’ of the Mail Online narrative? (We don’t need to rate their journalism. Haha.)
@Celsius: Here’s your comment about Bodström (at this site).
http://bit.ly/cHtvTW
Cheers.
I find currently six (6) instances in this comment thread of Julian Assange being referred to as a ‘pig’ yet I find no objection from the admin as happens when the term ‘feminazi’ is used.
@ Rick. Thanks. I knew I did something on those clowns earlier.
Regarding Bodström I have done some thinking regarding the spook angle in this case. I don’t believe any spooks initiated it, but they sure as hell use it when they get it for free. (We have a saying in Sweden; “Don’t look a given horse in the mouth.” Anything similar elswhere?)
Now, to continue along those lines there has been a strange discussioin about the Bodströms moving to the US now, and how that would be compatible with being Minister of Justice in Sweden, if his party wins the election. And then it becomes totally clear to me! It is a superb logistical logic! Perfectly simple. Why would he stay in Sweden? In the US he will be closer to the people he works for! And after the FRA surveillance cables are plugged in, it will be possible for FRA to read the e-mails from his bosses, so clearly he needs to avoid that. Being in the States, he may even get to rub shoulders with them. In person!
You think I am on to something here?!?
SvD: Now Marianne Ny gets her five minutes of fame.
http://bit.ly/cOMoVT
SvD: Leif Silbersky continues to shake his head.
http://bit.ly/cRPETB
Ny insists she got ‘new information’ late yesterday afternoon. /facepalm
Silbersky’s comments (SvD)
http://bit.ly/bcNRpl
‘The circle is complete. First it was a prosecutor that ruled on a preliminary investigation, then another who ruled to shelve it, after having thoroughly reviewed the material, and now a third one who opens it again. You’ve got to wonder what a fourth prosecutor would say. And I have to wonder what they’re thinking outside the country when they watch this circus’, says Silbersky.
Silbersky also reveals several foreign news sources including CNN have contacted him and asked him to explain what’s going on and how the Swedish legal system works.
‘Honestly I’m having difficulty explaining it’, says Silbersky. ‘The decision to reopen the case has been taken without interrogating my client. But he’s not been called for further questioning.’
What Silbersky should do is appeal the decision of Ny.
‘I can understand that it looks messy when the prosecutors all arrive at different decisions’, says Ny.
‘We can corroborate that there was more that needed to be done but I don’t want to go into why. It’s difficult to explain why the one makes one judgement call and the other makes a different judgement call.’
‘It’s difficult to explain without going into the new information in the case. And I can’t reveal that information because of the rule of secrecy surrounding sex crimes.’
‘But the normal thing in cases like this is to interrogate all parties including the suspect.’
‘I can’t go into whether he will be arrested in the future.’
~2000 prosecutor decisions are appealed each year, less than 1% of all decisions. One in ten of the appeals ‘go through’.
Reversing the decision of a prosecutor on duty is much more common.
‘We don’t have statistics on it but it’s not at all unusual. Prosecutor decisions are changed all the time what with new information being made available’, says Karin Rosander.
SvD tried to reach Eve Finné.
‘It’s both the old material and the new material on which we’ve made our decision’, says Ny to DN.se. ‘I can’t comment on the details and what’s going to happen to ensure the quality of the work we’re doing now.’
Expressen report that Julian Assange’s freedom of movement will soon be taken away.
‘I know what I’ve done in my life. Which is why I know these accusations are without foundation and disturbing’, says Assange.
‘I’m not afraid. This is an enormous waste of time and as far as I can see it’s an abuse of process. The motivations aren’t clear.’
Assange was met by Expressen reporters Sofia Johansson and Magnus Hellberg. ‘It’s a circus’, Assange told them.
‘Yesterday was the first time anyone talked with me about this to any extent. And yesterday it wasn’t about the accusations they’re talking about today. And today we’ve understood the matter has been reopened for reasons that are unclear to me but which in no way can build on facts.’
‘Now we’ll wait to hear, yet again, to hear from the Swedish authorities about their desires to hear what evidence I have about these events.’
‘I’ve never been given the opportunity to give them the information I have about these events.’
[Will post all links in bit.ly format later. So much to do so far today.]
Aftonbladet promise to publish their interview with Assange tomorrow.
Wow, the comments here sure have degraded in quality. Now it’s just one big ‘feminazi’ conspiracy theory. I swear, the Swedish men on this site seem to fear that their dicks are about to be cut off. “Gender traitor”? Give me a break…
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article7711303.ab
AB met Assange at a restaurant in Stockholm this afternoon. It’s been several hours since he got word the case is reopened, something that made headlines all over the world.
He looks tired. It’s obvious these eleven days have had their effect on him.
According to what Aftonbladet know, the suspicion is that he took off a condom when he had sex with one of the women.
What Assange is suspected of is guarded by the rule of secrecy.
‘I’ll say the same thing I’ve said all along. I didn’t do anything with those two women which hasn’t been completely voluntary on both sides.’
‘This is a circus. No one has asked me or my solicitor about my version. It was only on Monday I found out what the ‘ofredande’ was supposed to be about.’
‘I am very upset. And even worried about the Swedish legal system’s lack of respect for people’s integrity.’
‘Some of the questions were about intimate activities. Most of the interrogation was about me wanting guaranties that the details of the interrogation wouldn’t be leaked to the media. I told them how critical I was about how they initially leaked things.’
‘I asked them to look at my cellphone to see evidence that supported my version of the story but they weren’t interested.’
Complete interview published tomorrow.
Pugget:
Wow, you really are out of touch with both the swedish reality and the international reality.
BTW I have replied your claims on Aktivarum
Also I have a suggestion: Try reading this
Legalizing Misandry: From Public Shame to Systemic Discrimination Against Men
PS. My wife has now reversed her own vote to return to Sweden for a visit in the next year. ‘They’re crazy there’, she says.
http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/inget-forvanar-mig-langre-1.1163030
A police complaint of false accusation was filed against the two women on 22 August. Eva Finné dismissed the complaint. DN.se received private correspondence from someone who thinks it’s remarkable Finné was allowed to make this decision.
‘Finné makes herself guilty of prejudice (jäv). She is prejudiced because a decision to begin a preliminary investigation about false accusations would have meant an admission by her office that mistakes have been made’, writes this person.
‘I think the prosecutor’s office in this situation should have remembered you don’t accuse Caesar’s wife and that one should have turned over the matter to another prosecutor’, comments Silbersky. ‘It would have looked better. But I don’t want to condemn them because I don’t know what the rules the game are.’
Dreadful developments, and yes it does seem like a circus.
I do not have time today to catch up on all the blog commentary today, so can someone please explain to me:
Are people (ie blog and forum commentators etc) drawing a conclusion that those with a political grudge against wikileaks are now stepping in to use the scandal to their own ends? In other words, what seems to have begun as a misunderstanding (to put it mildly) between Assange and radical feminists, has now become geo-political?
OR: is it simply the case that more radical feminists are asserting their position and re-opening the rape case?
thanks, erik for the aktivarum posts; very helpful.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/02/world/europe/02wikileaks.html
‘According to accounts the women gave to police and friends, Swedish officials said, they had consensual sexual encounters with Mr Assange that became nonconsensual. One woman said that Mr Assange had ignored her appeals to stop after a condom broke. The other woman said that she and Mr Assange had begun a sexual encounter using a condom, but that Mr Assange did not comply with her appeals for him to stop when it was no longer in use.’
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2994566.htm
‘So the boring truth is that Assange didn’t come up against a CIA conspiracy, but the rather broad Swedish conception of what constitutes a sexual crime.’
‘Translation? Amateur hour at the prosecutor’s office.’
‘Google Translate is a helpful tool, though in the race to be first with the latest news of Assange, many bloggers have been far too trusting of its often really terrible results.’
Haven’t seen this before. This is really sick.
http://www.unt.se/inc/print/sexistiska-studentsanger-uppror-402697-Default.aspx
Ardin’s comment – this does not represent Sweden thank goodness:
‘People want to maintain an unofficial tradition and think this is student material, and so these lyrics are spread further. It’s of course very negative if people continue to use them.’
[Note: some of the most profiled matriarchies on the planet have bawdy songs that would make most people blush and probably make Ardin explode.]
First comment on ABC AU thread really sums things up.
‘I cannot understand why so many people are prepared to back this creep, assange was a hacker, he admits this himself so next time you get a virus on your computer, have your personal information or business info hacked, get programs embedded into your pc that screw it up just think how great he is. How anyone that can cause mayhem with other people lives/computers is supported by those he was doing the damage to is beyond me, the man is and was a criminal, he deserves everything that happens to him.’ (seajae)
With Einsteins like seajae roaming the planet freely it’s a wonder we’re in as good shape as we are.
‘Currently he has been given protective custody by the authority in Sweden.’ – Ture Sjolander (But where is the citation? More blabber and nonsense.)
ExSwede writes something that rings very true:
‘What happened to Assange is a quite common occurrence in Sweden. There are many Swedish men sitting in jail because the victim was “believable” not because there were evidence. A sad situation indeed for a country that like to think of itself as progressive, equal and with an impeccable record of human rights.’
Not only in jail – but without custody rights after divorces. The women just thrown out child molestation or their being raped themselves with no evidence and no plan to ever back up such claims – and the courts will rule in their favour.
Men are 2nd class citizens in Sweden. This is something every Swedish man knows. But of course no one is allowed to talk about that.
> Are people (ie blog and forum commentators etc) drawing a conclusion that those with a political grudge against wikileaks are now stepping in to use the scandal to their own ends?
That’s a bit of a stretch. Four women are involved in processing accusations against Julian Assange which have been brought by two other women. Sweden is indeed weird and the prosecutor’s office doesn’t seem to have a single male prosecutor.
Misandry book: better URLs.
Legalizing Misandry: From Public Shame to Systemic Discrimination Against Men
Legalizing Misandry: From Public Shame to Systemic Discrimination Against Men
‘a worldview based on ideological feminism which presents all issues from the point of view of women and in the process explicitly or implicitly attacks men as a class’
See also:
Amazon.com: Spreading Misandry: The Teaching of Contempt for Men in Popular Culture (9780773530997): Paul Nathanson, Katherine Young: Books
Spreading Misandry: The Teaching of Contempt for Men in Popular Culture
‘What makes Spreading Misandry a useful book is that it puts a small spoke in the works of the large and noisy machinery of moral indignation that feminism has succeeded in constructing in academe and the media over the last 20 years.’
By the author of ‘Who Stole Feminism’:
Amazon.com: The War Against Boys: How Misguided Feminism Is Harming Our Young Men: Christina Hoff Sommers: Books
The War Against Boys: How Misguided Feminism Is Harming Our Young Men
By Kathleen Parker:
Amazon.com: Save the Males: Why Men Matter Why Women Should Care (9781400065790): Kathleen Parker: Books
Save the Males
Obviously this issue is way out there and has been discussed for some time. ‘Where there’s smoke there’s fire’, as the femi-jihadists like to say. What’s happened is that men typically don’t want to bother, don’t want to be seen as weak. And then a twisted form of feminism gains hold.
Finally a quote from a rabid feminist on the ABC AU thread – this is staggering beause it mixes so much hatred, prejudice, and total IT incompetence in the same paragraph.
‘Wikileaks is a CIA trap in itself. All of that nonsense about Assange having to run around in hiding is rubbish. Any person who operates or uploads content to a website can easily be traced, anywhere in the world. His joy-tripping around the globe is more of a publicity stunt than a bid to avoid spies.’
There must be something else to do tonight. I suggest we all try to find it.
Best comment on the ABC AU thread:
‘If [Assange] doesn’t tell the password for his computer to anyone, even then, it can be traced?’
– Lehan Ramsay
The Independent:
http://bit.ly/afBYJY
Comment by ‘Bill’:
‘It’s almost funny – though actually very sad – that this guy is being assumed to be innocent merely because he’s a hero of the left, and not because that is every accused man’s right.’
‘In almost any other circumstance, a man accused of rape would be presumed guilty and the Harmonesque wimmin would be braying and cackling for his balls to be cut off. Remember, in wimmin’s-land, it is not guilt or innocence that counts, but the conviction statistics.’
ashasekh:
“Are people (ie blog and forum commentators etc) drawing a conclusion that those with a political grudge against wikileaks are now stepping in to use the scandal to their own ends? In other words, what seems to have begun as a misunderstanding (to put it mildly) between Assange and radical feminists, has now become geo-political? OR: is it simply the case that more radical feminists are asserting their position and re-opening the rape case?”
Both!
The reason it happened was clearly because of the crazy feminists (tokfeminister) in sweden having more and more power in police and prosecutors office (there is a network “Hilda” existing solely to give women top jobs in the justice system – cause of shared genitalia.)
However as the Assange-supporters made this an excuse to attack CIA and Pentagon with claims of conspiracy, The Assange-haters made this an excuse to attack Assange and Wikileaks based on them being “low on morals” In the beginning these two were the only alternatives.
I think we Aktivarum, were the first in Sweden to point out with crazy feminists neither would be necessary to create this situation. Culture marxist, radical feminists would do the job just fine. And very early we got the indications at least one of the two women had those kind of political views.
“thanks, erik for the aktivarum posts; very helpful.”
Glad you like it, feel free to spread the link over the web. We want as many as possible to read the summary. Also, a bit special was that we actually managed to get the text to Mr Assange himself. We do know he have read it.
Today the five female prosecutors/spokespersons are putting up a united front: ‘no comments’. Curious they didn’t implement this from the beginning.
The only proven crime so far is that of Maria Kjellstrand who was compelled by law and the duties of her office to respond to the Expressen inquiry with ‘no comments’ at the outset.
This transgression must not go unpunished.
Henrik Alexandersson (works with PP in Brussels)
http://bit.ly/bTKrCu
‘It’s important Assange doesn’t leave the country. If they were to issue an international arrest order, the US might jump in and try to grab him first.’
Also an implication in the comments that this can be an attempt to whitewash Kjellstrand. There’s also an implication that they’re trying to further stretch the definition of ‘rape’ and decided in their wisdom to use this as a pilot case.
My comment: if this isn’t enough, they may try to hang Assange out to merely hide their own incompetence.
@ erik thx for a lot of useful input via aktivarium. I followed your discussion with pugget there and am leaning towards puggets side. I can understand that what you expressed about the situation in sweden is something that sets people on edge, and rightly so.
That does however not mean that the sociological data pugget refered to is wrong. Plz consider the possibility that those radical feminists as you call them might to some part also distort the validity of the sources they use to back their claims. Just because some fanatics quote something doesn’t automatically mean what they choose to quote is bullshit.
I don’t have the time to direct you to the right links, but claiming rape is NOT about power is ignoring one dimension of the subject at hand, and an important one. also, more rapes are commited than being reported not being true I find hard to believe … your theory on shame towards other woman only I find highly questionable too.
You mentioned some of the stuff those ultra feminists do, like calling and accusing rape when there is none, is a slap into the face of real rape victims … some of the stuff you wrote there might work the same way. Overall I rly liked your article there, but trying to keep things a bit more sperate might not be such a bad idea. as you said this is about how swedish feminism relates to JA’s situation, this is not about rape in general and explaining the phenomenon. that might need a wee bit more than a blog entry. this is likewise not about left wing ideology or political position in general. so forgive me, but condemning all that in one sentence just cause it’s something your radical feminists make use of is a bit shortsighted.
Trying to find opinions on Swedish Google’s blog search. After this it’s into the cesspool of Flashback.
Svensson blog:
http://bit.ly/92ZWoh
‘If any of this leads to formal charges, I’m convinced this will affect his application for residence/work permits.’
Erik’s latest (is this already linked in?)
http://bit.ly/9oQm6n
‘Something clearly is wrong with the swedish justice system.’
Note Erik has rape victims in his own family. (Sorry dude – our best to them.) And he’s incensed that this ‘velour’ case is being given attention the real victims of real crimes never get. You can’t argue with that!
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article7699790.ab (2010-08-31)
This is where it gets really dicey and the femi-jihadists show their true colours. This link has perhaps been posted before but it’s important to point out what’s been written here.
Had sex with the woman
The woman has claimed Assange deliberately broke a condom when they had sex and according to Aftonbladet’s sources it’s this event behind the molestation complaint.
To reiterate: none of this would at this point in time have been cause for extreme concern if Maria Kjellstrand had not broken the law in the first place.
transient:
“erik thx for a lot of useful input via aktivarium. I followed your discussion with pugget there and am leaning towards puggets side.”
Pugget has given source for anything so thats not much of a “side” to take.
“I can understand that what you expressed about the situation in sweden is something that sets people on edge, and rightly so.”
This is not about Sweden. The radical feminist agenda was created at the Barnard Conference in USA, around 1982. This is the event that Ariel Levy talks about in her book “female chauvinist pigs” that divided feminism. We are a small country so the effects are getting visible faster. Thats all.
“That does however not mean that the sociological data pugget refered to is wrong.”
He did NOT refer to any specific data. He just did what sociologist normally do when they lie, he referred to “normal procedure” which is what the sociologists we had lecturing did too. Funny enough so did Rosander on Al-Jazeera. Her entire defense was based on “thats how we usually do things”
“Plz consider the possibility that those radical feminists as you call them might to some part also distort the validity of the sources they use to back their claims.”
Radical feminist is what they are, not just what I CALL them but what they actually ARE. In fact they used to be radical women and against video violence. They then started calling themselves feminists only when they would gain from it. Professor Christina Hoff Sommers makes this case clear in the book “Who stole feminism?”
“Just because some fanatics quote something doesn’t automatically mean what they choose to quote is bullshit.”
No, its the complete lack of objective evidence that makes it bullshit. I dont care how popular it is. Such a fallacy is called Argumentum ad populum.
“I don’t have the time to direct you to the right links”
You should not even need links, you should only need the ability to explain logically what evidence supports your case.
“but claiming rape is NOT about power is ignoring one dimension of the subject at hand, and an important one.”
No, but claiming rape is about power is ignoring a very important dimension of science, the part where you actually support claims with EVIDENCE.
However propaganda-studies does teach us the value of letting your own media just repeat the same thing over and over again… Since Miss Steinem owned a magazine (Ms), why not use it? Said and done, she hired miss Rapestudy (Koss) and started swamp women with the new rape-ideology.
“also, more rapes are commited than being reported not being true”
Not all rapes committed are reported true, but its also true shitloads of the reported rapes are NOT rapes.
A study by special agents at US Airforce 1992 concluded at least 60 percent of the accusations were pure bullshit- After doing the actual study they contacted the women and asked them WHY they had made false reports: Of the women who answered the result was:
20% Revenge
20% Compensate feelings of guilt or shame
13% Thought she could be pregnant
12% Conceal an affair
Thought she might have caught a VD was 3%
No surprise three of these “excuses” are present in the Assange case, Fear of pregnant, Fear of VD and Revenge…
“I find hard to believe … your theory on shame towards other woman only I find highly questionable too.”
But again no arguments or sources, you just assume I am wrong cause… well, the other is popular and repeated lots of times in media… But I did tell you, Professor Roy Baumeister actually have PROVEN women shame other women… Thats an actual scientific study.
They tested two hypothesis on sexual repression, men shame women, women shame women. the evidence supports women shame women.
“You mentioned some of the stuff those ultra feminists do, like calling and accusing rape when there is none, is a slap into the face of real rape victims …”
More like kicking their face in and stepping on them when they are down.
“some of the stuff you wrote there might work the same way. Overall I rly liked your article there, but trying to keep things a bit more sperate might not be such a bad idea.”
Dunno…. I write good cause of logical skills and very good source material.
“as you said this is about how swedish feminism relates to JA’s situation, this is not about rape in general and explaining the phenomenon.”
Swedish feminism is about US rape-politics in general. They are just more obvious in a small country.
“that might need a wee bit more than a blog entry. this is likewise not about left wing ideology or political position in general. so forgive me, but condemning all that in one sentence just cause it’s something your radical feminists make use of is a bit shortsighted.”
Since when do I care about any political position? Radical feminism holds the extreme ends of both political positions. On the left the culture-critical manhaters citing Foucault, on the right the moralist sexhaters citing the bible.
What they have in common is simple: they cant stand mainstream people and they both could not stand not having moral high ground actually having to ARGUE using evidence for their claims instead of “we are goodies”
They both hate the concept of evidence.
Sorry for going OT but these things need to be replied.
well ok, solid answer, thx
so evidence, you might for one read up on some of the stuff Pierre Bourdieu wrote on Symbolic Violence, and try keeping that in mind when talking about power not being a factor. Imho power relations and their working in society are still rather under- than overestimated. I don’t take issue at all with you saying rape is not all about power. It is however usually some part of the mix.
As for the shame aspect, I have to admit I have no empirical studies like you can offer. I do know though, from knowing more than one person that became a victim of rape that shame is not just aimed at other woman, but rather social surroundings at large. Whoever is the victim becomes stigmatized in a way too or at the very least feels like that. And that, likewise is the reason why I doubt the number of false accusations being higher than the number of not reported rape and abuse crimes. stuff like that comes with severe psychological trauma, which is the reason that many do not speak about it at all and hence do not report and press charges. likewise, the event might be so traumatic that on a subconcious level the victim might deny what happend to him or her. I totally agree with you though that it is totally perverse and distasteful move to turn that around into the argument of woman constantly being raped without even realizing it.
as for political ideological stuff… i just was annoyed a bit by the way you used the label marxist in there. not that I am THAT left, but mark my words no matter what ideologies were built on his theories, the old chap had a couple of insights that will yet return to haunt our happy capitalist world
… there came a lot of shit in the wake of Marx’ work, which by critical voices usually gets summarized under “marxist crap” label … that is just unnecesarily stigmatizing. so if you take offense at the way those fanatics use political or socilogical theory make it abit more to the point – you were sensible enough to make a clear distiction between feminism and radical ursurpers of the feminist movement so to speak … that might be a usefull approach on some other stuff too.
oh and at one part you mentioned that an empirical study is worth more than listening to whatever one victim has to say (loosely paraphrasing here, sry) I find that just poorly worded – people who unlike our two accusers suffered for real might have a hard time reading that…
that being said, this is prly going offtopic a bit here, sry, … I’l pass you some comment at the other place when I have the time in case you feel like getting into this.
back to topic:
could someone plz explain how much the public is entiteled to know on why the charges were taken up again? ok so now they say “no comment” …but for how long can they uphold that stance? what will the public be entitled to learn about the descissionmaking process of the various prosecutors according to swedish law?
To whom it may concern:
My name is Pussy Galore. I’m the former head of the aerial act known as Pussy Galore’s Flying Circus. I was in the employ of one Auric Goldfinger. Mr Goldfinger is not available anymore to substantiate my claims but I trust they will be taken seriously anyway.
Approximately 46 years ago I was asked by Mr Goldfinger to fly a certain hostile passenger to Mr Goldfinger’s stud farm in the US. I later learned that this person was in the employ of Her Majesty’s Secret Service where he used the code name ’007′ and had been granted a so-called ‘licence to kill’.
The agent’s name was of course James Bond, today a household name around the world and a person held in universal high regard.
The facts of the case are as follows.
Mr Goldfinger noted that representatives of the US intelligence organisation CIA were lurking about his property with binoculars. Mr Goldfinger suspected they were curious as to Mr Bond’s presence and prepared to come to Mr Bond’s aid if they suspected he was being held against his will. Mr Goldfinger advised me to change more ‘appropriate’ attire and then show Mr Bond around the property to waylay the suspicions of Mr Bond’s colleagues in the CIA.
Mr Bond and I proceeded to a barn on the property where Mr Bond made inappropriate and unsolicited advances. I immediately cautioned Mr Bond to stop, explaining that he was not my type. I didn’t think I needed to spell out that I was a lesbian as telling him my unwillingness to accede to his advances should have been enough.
Mr Bond continued to molest me and time and again I responded by using my martial arts skills to thwart his advances. But Mr Bond finally got the better of me, positioned himself above me where I lay on the barn floor in the hay, forced his legs between mine, and proceeded to kiss me.
People viewing the footage of this heinous attack by the pig James Bond may today think I finally relented, as I seemed to give into his kisses and kiss him back. But my position was such that I had already told Mr Bond ‘no’, he was clearly a man with a warped understanding of womanhood that didn’t know how to take ‘no’ for an answer, and as he was overpowering me, there was little I could to but give in.
Mr Bond later reported that he was able to defeat the evil plans of my employer by appealing to my maternal instincts. Nothing could be further from the truth. Mr Bond raped me.
I know it’s almost 50 years since that incident and I am aware of statutes of limitations but I also saw a documentary on television last night that stated unequivocally: ‘JAMES BOND WILL RETURN’. I want Mr Bond to know that when he returns, I shall be ready for him.
Yours Sincerely,
Pussy Galore, former aviator (retired)
PS. I think perhaps I’ll move to Sweden and ask Mr Bond around for a cup of tea. What I’ve seen, I can convict a man of anything in that country.
Does anyone know to what JA is referring in this interview with Expressen when he says, “Today I had a case filed against me in the United States in a wholly unrelated matter.”
Have the details of the U.S. “case” been made public?
bmull:
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/wikileaks/wikileaks-boss-others-sued-world’s-looniest-inmate
bmull, it could be this nuisance lawsuit, which WL tweeted:
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/wikileaks/wikileaks-boss-others-sued-world%E2%80%99s-looniest-inmate
It is a nuisance lawsuit and it will be dismissed, but of course that takes time and money.
Could I remind people here that there are many feminists in many countries who are supporters of Assange and WL, but who will begin to react against some of the more extreme anti-feminist rhetoric that sometimes appears here? Feminists aren’t irrationally partisan, and are perfectly capable of believing that a man like Assange could be stalked, as it appears to me he was.
I’m not Swedish, so I’m interested to hear reasonable news about how things work there, but I do think that some of the anti-feminist rhetoric has been going over the top.
‘I’m not Swedish, so I’m interested to hear reasonable news about how things work there, but I do think that some of the anti-feminist rhetoric has been going over the top.’
You said it yourself. You’re not Swedish. It’s really not appropriate in your position to judge anything without learning more about the facts of the case and the situation in general.
‘Could I remind people here that there are many feminists in many countries who are supporters of Assange and WL, but who will begin to react against some of the more extreme anti-feminist rhetoric that sometimes appears here?’
Thanks but no. What you’re saying is that Sweden’s femi-jihadists can do anything they please but men must mind their manners.
Here’s a suggestion: take an Air Canada to Stockholm, put yourself up at the Grand, then wander the streets and the clubs (especially on Södermalm) and meet a girl or two. See how things work for you.
Until that time, you have no perception in the matter.
And just to point out: Sweden’s never had ‘equality’ issues like other countries and cultures. Those supposed ‘disparities’ have never existed in the same proportions or in the same way.
* The head of Sweden’s most powerful bank, part of the Wallenberg legacy, is a rather sexy woman and mother. Totally cool.
* The head of the powerful Swedish shipping line Johnson is a powerful (and sexy) woman.
* Sweden’s richest person used to be Märta Philipsson who ran the Mercedes dealerships.
* Sweden had pretty sexy bus drivers back in the 1950s.
You can’t equate Sweden with most any other country. And you can’t begin to appreciate the situation in Sweden today if you don’t understand the history and the background.
The first question an intelligent outsider should ask given no more than the above is: what then are they fighting for?
They already have a sophisticated state financed daycare system where it’s mostly girls taking care of other girl’s kids; they have benefits for mother leave and such you can only dream of: the mother of my children made enough money on those grants alone that she could have supported herself on her own for at least three years like that; and so forth.
It’s really not at all uncommon for women to intentionally get pregnant by lying to their boyfriends about birth control, then living off the government for the rest of their lives. My best friend was victimised in this fashion – by a girl he told time and again to leave him alone. He’s not alive today as a direct result of what that ‘girl’ did to him.
The women who do this are sometimes referred to as the ‘baby of the month club’.
Almost all social offices in the country are run almost exclusively by women. You can pass any law you want (where 47% in the parliament are already women – what other country can boast that) but at the end of the day it’s the people at shop level who interpret (or ignore) the legislation.
Ask yourself: what would have happened to Sweden’s prosecutor who divulged confidential information to a tabloid if he’d been a man?
Think about it.
The women are in control in Sweden. Nobody wants anything but equality. Neither my wife nor I would think of anything else. Most Swedish men are good around the house and yes know how to cook well. I love to cook.
My father in law could literally not boil an egg or make a sandwich. No joke. That’s not the way things have been for quite some time.
A friend of a friend came home with a wife from Thailand who wanted to reign in the kitchen and her husband and his friends had to teach her the error of her ways. Why? Because they found it affronting that they weren’t allowed to do the things they were used to doing for themselves.
60% of all households in Stockholm proper are single residences. People living alone. Lots of girls and lots of boys. And most do their own cooking and are very good at it. As they are with the washing-up, the laundry, house cleaning, all the rest.
One of my best friends is a sexy woman who drives a lorry. And so forth.
You’re looking at Sweden through a straw. Don’t comment, judge, or condemn until you know more. Odds are your impression of what’s going in equates to Plato’s myth of the cave in turbo mode.
@ Rick:
Here’s a suggestion: take an Air Canada to Stockholm, put yourself up at the Grand, then wander the streets and the clubs (especially on Södermalm) and meet a girl or two. See how things work for you.
Until that time, you have no perception in the matter.
You seem to be under the misapprehension that I am a guy. Let me disabuse you of that notion. I’m a het feminist woman, and I can’t imagine why I’d be out “meeting a girl or two.” A girl? A girl?
I have a very clear perception that you are not one of the serious contributors to this discussion, and you are furthermore just plain rude.
I find inverting a situation very instructive on seeing if there is bigottry involved so think of this scenario instead.
An attractive female activist with almost no money of her own travelled to foreign country while on the run from other governments, and stayed in the house of a male politician she didn’t know very well who promised he would not be using the flat while she was there. This man is essential to organising the woman’s conferences and providing contacts within the foreign country’s political and activist networks. That man then changed his mind about leaving her alone for the week in the 1 bedroom flat as he had promised and comes back to his flat as he has every legal right to do. All on the pretext of more work for “the cause”.
They have dinner and he screws her.
And the next day this well known activist was followed by another man to a conference. This man is engaged to be married to another and yet he still pursues the woman. He works his way into being invited to her luncheon and gets her attention by buying gifts useful for her work to which she is devoted. He chats her up and takes her to a movie where they got very amorous. She is charmed and wants to see her again and they swap phone numbers.
She leaves for a party that the first man has organised for her. While there she texts the guy who just charmed her at lunch.
She meets the second man and says she would like to see where he lives. She has no money so she’s dependent upon his good will to pay for transport there and back.
She turns up but her behaviour is a bit nervy and not as amorous as expected. She’s a workaholic and continues to work on the train on the way to the second man’s home. The second suitor is not at all impressed with this. He thinks her attention should be on him.
She says the night and he screws her. In the morning he buys them both breakfast and sends her on her way with a train ticket.
He expects her to call him and she doesn’t. Angry he calls her work and somehow finds out that she had been living and sleeping with another man.
What do they do? They trash her reputation to everyone they can. She’s a whore, a slut and look what she did to them! In fact she’s such a whore that when they fucked her without a condom she probably gave them diseases! Stop the presses! That bitch is spreading AIDS just like that German slut!
Rape does not need physical violence, which is a point far too many people do not acknowledge. Coercion can be implied violence, blackmail, or simple abuse of power such as housing or employment. Gifts and meals are widely accepted as pressure to have sex. To be fair sometimes the perpetrator does not realise they are in a position of power over the other person. That does not mean the sex is concentual, it means that people need to be sensitive to power issues and to bloody well CHECK wiith their partner that they really do want to have sex. Afterall, what sort of person wants to have sex with somebody who does not really like them that much?
Having said all of that, I look at what we know about JA’s activities with those women and I see the signs of power are in the _women’s_ actions and not his.
The women bought him gifts, paid for transport, and provided housing and food. AA was an important contact for him in a foreign country that he is hoping to make a political refuge for himself.
If JA was a woman who put herself into the same situations we would be talking about how stupid she was to walk into a situation of such vulnerability. People _never_ talk about how men should curtail their activities because it might be sexually dangerous, but as far as I can see, that’s what’s happened here.
If you want to trash somebody’s reputation over sex, women are sluts and men are rapists.
@Rick
You have an exagerated fear of women.
@Rick:
Wow. You are a CREEPY little bully. Your continual bleating about misandry is disturbing, and not a little cringe-inducing. I seriously feel sorry for any of the women in your life.
“Until that time, you have no perception in the matter.”
Who are you to tell someone that they have no “perception” in any matter? And by the way, please look up the meaning of the word “perception.” Your word usage is off which just makes you sound like a patronizing jackass.
Oh, another thing? Try to hide your gigantic hard-on for Julian Assange. Yes, we know he’s sexy as hell, but…really…it’s getting kind of embarrassing. And no, Julian Assange isn’t going to call you with an invitation to join the WikiLeaks team after he reads all your comments on this thread. Get over yourself.
@admin:
This WAS a great blog post and a great thread, and you actually sound like a decent human being. Too bad. Peace out.
Anonymous: “This is just a case of harrassment and intimidation by the state. … Anybody who knows what it’s like to be targetted by a bureaucracy because they didn’t know or care about when to keep their mouth shut will be familiar with this.”
Yes. And what are we going to do about it? Anyone who sits on their hands this time does not deserve freedom. Calling Anonymous. (The other one.) 4chan if we must, then everyone with brains, fire them up. Now.
@Rick Understand, points taken, but what are you going to do about it? To the world, this is many states and the media working together to take away our freedom of speech. Not about Swedish feminism in the result, even if that’s where it started. If you think they are going to pass a new law, what are you going to do about it?
Anyone who thinks this won’t hurt wikileaks, or you can just sit out and everything will be ok, is very very wrong.
I read all the comments and this new investigation is quite depressing to say the least. I hope JA will keep up with his spirit. He can be emotionally drained as he has been traveling and doing seminars and that can be such a drain too.
I hope CNN, NYT, and JA’s friends in the U.S will support him continuously. Let’s hope for the best that this new investigation will highlight why the women are after Assange.
I have a hard time understanding the judicial decision making process in Sweden. After all the blame should fall on the women because they initiated the invitation. I think these women wanted money from Assange and they want bilk it by this investigation. Too bad, that the prosecutor or the judges are not checking why a socialist democratic christian movt. would target a man in the first place. There is an ulterior motive! Where is the womens’ moral standards?
It is too dangerous if these women are behaving like nazis. There needs to be a balance. I think all they might do is extradite JA from Sweden. I hope all the men would come forward and petition against such brutality from the behavior of women.
It is pure vendetta from these women! I hope JA wins this case. My fingers crossed! We need to show mercy so God can show mercy unto us! Swedes, wake up!
Josie, I understand how you feel but mostly 4chan is like Wikileaks’ embarrassing antisocial step brother. Any “help” from them is going to cut both ways. Can you imagine the political mileage the extremist women (I don’t want to call them feminists) can milk from screenshots off /b/?
I am struck by JA’s assertion that he’s been somehow set up – (by the C.I.A./Pentagon… by rabid feministas… by any of the myriad of “bastards” he’s made enemies out of in the past year… take your pick.) The problem with his claim is that he has no evidence to back up his suspicions… at least none that he’s presented publicly.
Moreover, any organization or government clever enough to fit him up for a rape charge is bound to have covered their tracks pretty well. In other words, short of someone coming forward and confessing the plot, he’s not likely to find evidence enough to prove to the world he’s been had.
Thus it seems that the founder and main spokesman for an organization that serves as a clearing house for leaked government information now finds, that in order to prove he’s been framed, he must rely on… leaked government information.
Now that’s irony.
Anon. Aus.
I know, and of course I didn’t mean the site, the /b/tards are just the members of anonymous that most people are familiar with. What I mean to say is, this is too big for one person and there is no one in authority who is going to or can help. If we don’t stand together we’ll all fall apart and any other cliche you can think of. And obviously I just mean for the people here who support wikileaks, I realize not all do.
Gaah, bad day, and probably many worse to come. Do we care, or don’t we?
anon,
I can understand your frustration. The last resort would be for JA to leave Sweden as they have shred his image to pieces.
This smear is orchestrated either to harm JA or in the end they might reverse the laws of Sweden that may support the men in times of such allegations. Be optimistic and attract the law of reaction!
I would like to check do you his spokesperson from Iceland, Bragita Jon Dotir? Why is she not being his spokesperson with the judicial system?
Can someone answer this for me? I was just thinking about her because she had appeared on the tv sometime ago.
Thanks!
skdadl:
“Could I remind people here that there are many feminists in many countries who are supporters of Assange and WL, but who will begin to react against some of the more extreme anti-feminist rhetoric that sometimes appears here?”
Actually, as observed by professor Christina Hoff Sommers, By Ariel Levy and several other high profile female feminists REAL feminism doesnt support entitlement-feminism. REAL Feminists want equal rights, that goes completely against the crowd wanting SPECIAL RIGHTS for women.
“Feminists aren’t irrationally partisan, and are perfectly capable of believing that a man like Assange could be stalked, as it appears to me he was.”
Appears? If Assange had been a female celebrity we wouldnt even have this discussion. Its pure sexism.
“I’m not Swedish, so I’m interested to hear reasonable news about how things work there, but I do think that some of the anti-feminist rhetoric has been going over the top.”
Since you are not swedish and I am, maybe your idea of what normal rhetoric should be misses the reality of feminist studies in Sweden having courses like “critical white male studies” and nobody saying a word against it?
You simpkly seem to have no clue what you are up against. You are just basing your claims on pure theory. What thing SHOULD be like…. well guess what? Reality wins over theory!
Anonymous Australian:
“Rape does not need physical violence, which is a point far too many people do not acknowledge.”
You are wrong! Rape absolutely needs physical violence OR threat of physical violence or threat of other criminal acts, OR the woman being completely helpless (drugged) or the woman being a child (under 15)
Read the law!
Otherwise its not a rape. Rape means forced sex, for example lying to a woman making her believe you are a rock star to get her to bed is not rape. Regardless how pressured she feels by peers in that situation.
Its still her free choice.
“Coercion can be implied violence”
Threat of violence or other criminal acts. In itself a crime since you by law are not allowed to do illegal threats to people.
“blackmail”
Also in itself a crime.
“or simple abuse of power such as housing or employment.”
Then its not rape. Rape means FORCED sex, not pressured, overwhelmed or any other bullshit taught at women studies 101
“Gifts and meals are widely accepted as pressure to have sex.”
Thats bullshit! No girl in the entire counry of Sweden does not know how to get meals and gifts from guys she doesnt have sex with. No woman believe in that crap.
* In fact my pal payed my meal recently, he did not want to pressure me into sex.
* Also “widely accepted” is a useless argument, a fallacy called argumentum ad populum. More people believing bullshit does not make bullshit less bullshit.
And even if you had been correct, pressuring people to have sex is off course not rape or even a crime.
‘
“To be fair sometimes the perpetrator does not realise they are in a position of power over the other person.”
And often, neither does the other person. How lucky they both are to have people like YOU telling what in theory is power and what is not – but of course what that really means is giving YOU the power to decide reality itself.
Cause now you have surprise victims and surprise perps! And you decide who is who – with no objektive verifiable evidence whatsoever.
“That does not mean the sex is concentual, it means that people need to be sensitive to power issues and to bloody well CHECK wiith their partner that they really do want to have sex.”
Bullshit! Power issues are one of the main reasons for attraction. Had Assange not been a celebrity, chances of Sofia chasing him was zero.
“Afterall, what sort of person wants to have sex with somebody who does not really like them that much?”
According to the actual science (David Buss, Cindy Meston) LOTS and LOTS of people, men and women are attracted sexually to people they dont really like. Thats NORMAL HUMAN BEHAVIOR!
“Having said all of that, I look at what we know about JA’s activities with those women and I see the signs of power are in the _women’s_ hands and not his.”
Signs of power… bullshit!
“The women bought him gifts, paid for transport, and provided housing and food.”
And so did my pals earlier, are you saying they are gay and secretly want to pressure me into sex?
“AA was an important contact for him in a foreign country that he is hoping to make a political refuge for himself. (I hope he changes his mind.)”
AA and JA had normal consensual sex, the reason they ended up in bed was that because of AA arriving earlier they lived and worked cloes to eachother. Under those conditions attraction is common (ask actors and doctors)
According to a woman I spoke to AA only went bananas after Sofia called her and tried to find her sexpartner.
“If JA was a woman who put herself into the same situations we would be talking about how stupid she was to walk into a situation of such vulnerability.”
No! If JA was a woman, security guards would have prevented the stalker Sofia from getting close to the female celeb JA. In newspaper Aftonbladet JA would tell how creepy the guy was.
“People _never_ talk about how men should curtail their activities because it might be sexually dangerous, but as far as I can see, that’s what’s happened here. The women took advantage of him just like we would expect men would do with a woman in the same situation.”
The women did not take advantage of him. The women however felt used when SW looking for JA called AA and asked where she could find her “love”
If anything, the two women take advantage of stupid, gullible and naive men and woman in the justice system and political body.
“If you want to trash somebody’s reputation over sex, women are sluts and men are rapists.
The problem off course is, men dont give a shit about a persons reputation. Women USED TO when they had to have a good reputation to get a supporting husband.
But when women are not even looking for such a husband who give a rats ass about reputation anyway?
The funny thing about this case is: Nobody seem to think it weird the person supposedly raped is not the celeb but the person stalking the celeb.
Logical! You do all you can to get into somebody elses bed, then when you are there you are the one forced into it?
Makes sense?
Rick, the fact you selected an Air Force study to prove your point is amazing. The Air Force has repeatedly been found by the GOA (a general fact checking and accountability office in the U.S. federal government, non-partisan and still respected) and the justice department to have downplayed and swept rape accusations under the rug. They’ve had a male dominated culture for years, and have actively resisted female recruits. The use of sexual harassment and rape to that cause, while not directed by the military brass, continues to be tolerated. I grew up near to the Air Force academy and have a friend who left after being raped. The Air Force refused to press charges as the man did not ejaculate. The Air Force would be the last institution on earth who’s statistics I would trust on the subject of rape.
It’s your concept on evidence that needs a good look at. I am in no way a radical feminist, but you offer an interesting look at the ideas that they are reacting against.
For those interested on a classic book in the field, I’d recommend “Men Who Rape: The Psychology of the Offender,” by A. Groth. While nearly 30 years old, it’s still a core intro book in the area of sexual violence.
I’m done responding to the people in this forum who seem to believe the charge of rape is usually false (i.e., Rick’s Air Force statistics). Study after study on rape reporting has concluded that the false report rate is somewhere between 3-10%. I’m not going to argue with people who dismiss almost every study because they have some wild notion of a feminazi conspiracy to make men second class citizen. Maybe the situation in Sweden has gone too far – I can certainly believe that some want to push the definition of rape beyond a reasonable point. But that doesn’t overturn decades of sociological study.
(Note, the fact that the charge is normally *not* false does not implicate JA’s guilt! Far from it. This case smells very fishy, and we’d all be best off waiting for more information before rushing to judgment.)
Sorry Rick, I was confusing you with Erik. Thanks dyslexia!
I think Erik’s most recent response speaks for itself.
Been reading this excellent blog now for days, following everyone’s analysis and reasoning.. and I am still uncomfortable and unable to accept the overall appraisal of “radical feminism” being used as the excuse for what is happening here. This reminds me of the book “The World According To Garp”. Which was satirical fiction.
A good dose of reality is needed to be implanted here and if it doesn’t come out of Sweden, it sure will from the rest of the world if this farce continues for very much longer.
The heinous act of unconsentual rape can not reasonably be diluted to include coercion, seduction & cheese!
I can not possibly see how this act of taking someone against their will, can even be associated with the use of condoms either. In any culture no matter how far off track they have become.
Reality: Two relatively young women pursue an association with JW. These two women are also politically savvy enough to be involved in a conference where he was speaking. Obviously, these two women have the intelligence to know that Wikileaks is groundbreaking, to bring new transparency to curtail the abuse of power across the world. They are also obviously aware the extreme situation JW was in having just released a bulk of material that had the pentagon up in arms at him.
They pursued him, that is obvious and uncontested. They pursued him for what purpose? If they are like most normal 20 & 30 year old women when pursuing a sexy hero like JW they first want intimacy and to favoured exclusively by him. To many relatively young women who are single and narcissistic, as these two women obviously are, it wouldn’t matter if he was married or not. OK this is obvious reality to me.
What I can not fathom or accept however, is how can either one of these two women be so selfishly motivated that they would stop the world on its heels of a new revolution to impugn the most vulnerable in this organisation because they may have been exposed to an STD? Does this make sense? There is absolutely no proportionality here whatsoever in any sane reasoning, call it “radical feminism” or the need to grow up.
That is why I can not accept this at face value. It is so extremely disproportionate and twisted that there must have been some underlying agenda in place to begin with. Even these two narcissistic women with sexual ambitions and unrealistic expections resulting from their short fling with JW know that you do not go to the police about an STD issue over a man who has just leaked 150k documents against the pentagons wishes… nobody is that stupid. So what’s up?
tomi …I agree with this feeling “off” … but the logic you use there is a bit “off” too: because JA is in the position he is in, whatever those woman’s interests are doesn’t count?
According to that logic, GW Bush should be criticized and sued for a lot of shit he did, but hey, since he is an ex-president and a poor brain-addled fellow ex-addict anyways we can’t rly bother him with it. Or …. that guy who used to be a nazi killing people …now he’s 80 and rly gonna die soon, so why still get him into a courtroom? …ok granted I’m coming up with stupid examples here… my point being … relativist logic just doesn’t fly … you can’t go and say …oh if it was somebody else I wouldn’t mind them suing rape over a comdom …BUT since its julian and wiki is so important they just will have to live with it. that’s just BS, sry.
That doesn’t mean I don’t find it ridicoulous on what grounds these rape charges are being built …but you cannot go and dismiss them simply BECAUSE ITS ABOUT WIKI … that logic is doing a disservice to all supporters of wikileaks
I’m sorry, tg, but what you have said doesn’t make any sense to me. And there is nothing “far off” in what I have said by any stretch of reasoning. Where does the proportionality come in?
In the real world, and I hate to even imagine that could mean outside of Sweden… women do not go to the police because they may have contacted an STD or broken a condom or even in the heat of consentual sex gave up on using one. They go to a clinic if they are that paranoid about it.
Women who feel jilted because their fling did not turn into an exclusive relationship do not send the police in on a man who has just leaked 150k documents against the pentagon’s wishes.
LMAO.
I think I’ve set of somebody’s guilty conscience here.
Oh well I’m done with this thread now. But I just want to say that if the attitudes of Erik and Rick are typical of Swedish men (and I doubt that) then it’s no wonder the women are angry.
transient guest:
“so evidence, you might for one read up on some of the stuff Pierre Bourdieu wrote on Symbolic Violence, and try keeping that in mind when talking about power not being a factor.”
The point is not whether power is a factor at all. The point is whether that should be a LEGAL factor. Also Bordieus work could as well be used to show female power through sexual selection. This I know for a fact since sociologist Henry Laasanen (Finland) has already done so.
“Imho power relations and their working in society are still rather under- than overestimated. I don’t take issue at all with you saying rape is not all about power. It is however usually some part of the mix.”
Rape is not about power, any power attributed to rape can scientifically be attributed to sexual relations in general. Something fairly obvious in radical feminism where the feminists themselves do not agree where to draw the line between “goodie sex” and “opression sex” – the trend is that lesbian feminists think any sex involving a man is oppressive and sisters should only have sex with sisters
And thats ACADEMIC works.
Any person discussing sex where power is not a factor at all is referring to a fantasy island and not the real world. Women themselves choose power – and the powerful women do it in fact more often.
In fact, a woman like Anna A is very likely to wanna sleep with a celebrity, political leader or something like that
But she is very unlikely to have a boyfriend who is plumber, carpenter or mechanic. This is a fact, you people just dont have the guts to say it cause anytime this IS told in media the social/women response would be “you are not getting laid”
———————————————————————
So you have a deep fear of admitting the scientific facts that women choose powerful men.
———————————————————————
“As for the shame aspect, I have to admit I have no empirical studies like you can offer. I do know though, from knowing more than one person that became a victim of rape that shame is not just aimed at other woman, but rather social surroundings at large.”
And what do you think a bullshit expression like “social surroundings” mean? Who do you think control your social surroundings?
“Whoever is the victim becomes stigmatized in a way too or at the very least feels like that.”
Well thats a fairly big difference aint it? Being a victim or feeling like one.
“And that, likewise is the reason why I doubt the number of false accusations being higher than the number of not reported rape and abuse crimes.”
The reason we know it is a high number of unfounded accusations is because the police themselves constantly (while for political reasons not allowed to TALK about it) SHOW IT by dropping them at once!
“stuff like that comes with severe psychological trauma”
Stuff like what? Unwanted sexual intercourse? In that case according to the Muehlenhard studyt 46% of the women have such a trauma.
It would then be more normal with such a trauma than being left-handed.
On pure logic its obvious such a claim is untrue!
“which is the reason that many do not speak about it at all and hence do not report and press charges.”
Since the reasons itself logically is a false claim, it cant motivate anything. All you really prove is rape-experts can say anything and never need evidence.
Its the ultimate SCAM knowledge based on complete lack of results or evidence. All they need are huge numbers of claimed rapes.
“likewise, the event might be so traumatic that on a subconcious level the victim might deny what happend to him or her.”
MIGHTH BE? Thats more or less you confessing these are in no way certain data, people just dont dare use logics, demand evidence or otherwise control for truth.
“I totally agree with you though that it is totally perverse and distasteful move to turn that around into the argument of woman constantly being raped without even realizing it.”
Thats logical, since they need more raped women than actually can be proven raped as excuse for the amounts of money they want EVEN if every claim is seen as a real rape. They have to make up shit to be able to present even women who claim they are not raped as “Victims of theory-rape”
“as for political ideological stuff… i just was annoyed a bit by the way you used the label marxist in there.”
Untrue, I said CULTURAL marxist. Thats not the same thing.
“not that I am THAT left, but mark my words no matter what ideologies were built on his theories, the old chap had a couple of insights that will yet return to haunt our happy capitalist world
”
The problem with Marx is that Marx never understood human nature. He wanted to believe in the incredibly bullshit theory of tabula raza.
” … there came a lot of shit in the wake of Marx’ work, which by critical voices usually gets summarized under “marxist crap” label”
Yes, and cultural marxism is the most powerful crap we got in the wake of marxism. Since workers no longer were victims, now the minoritoies would be made victims of any group with more power… first the upperclass… but no…. attacking rich people was a bad move, so the PC-crowd instead joined the upper class in a furious attack on the mainstream middle class. (the workers Marx wanted to enpower) and started to attack anything NORMAL.
Since power is normal in sex, of course they started attacking normal sex as well.
” … that is just unnecesarily stigmatizing. so if you take offense at the way those fanatics use political or socilogical theory make it abit more to the point – you were sensible enough to make a clear distiction between feminism and radical ursurpers of the feminist movement so to speak … that might be a usefull approach on some other stuff too.”
Feminist movement is today 2010 controlled by those radical ursurpers, off course what the ursurpers wanted (and got) was money and power.
“oh and at one part you mentioned that an empirical study is worth more than listening to whatever one victim has to say (loosely paraphrasing here, sry) I find that just poorly worded – people who unlike our two accusers suffered for real might have a hard time reading that…”
I am sure they do, the problem is they are wrong! A helicopter landing on my foot would not make me an expert helicopter pilot.
When people are upset you agree on anything to make them feel better… Thats called empathy
The problem arrives when idiots starts to believe what people say during therapy can be seen as scientific truth
Shrink: You can do anything
Victim: He said I can do anything – make it happen!
@ Erik:
For those who don’t know, Christina Hoff Sommers is a right-wing American ideologue, and I know of no feminist of any kind who takes her writing seriously or even considers her a feminist. Ariel Levy is a completely different kind of writer, a writer for the New Yorker who does pop sociological profiles of younger women.
I don’t need instruction in Feminism 101, and I think I’ll stay away from this discussion until admin returns.
Anonymous Australian:
“Oh well I’m done with this thread now. But I just want to say that if the attitudes of Erik and Rick are typical of Swedish men (and I doubt that) then it’s no wonder the women are angry.”
Women angry? WOW you are really stupid
I have women around me constantly, they sometimes are angry, sometimes happy, sometimes wants distance and sometimes so horny they cant wait to get inside to get their clothes off.
The simple fact is… in a society based on equality… their emotions is not my responsibility at all.
You sir sounds like a man during 1910 arguing against women voting rights.
Angry?
So what?
This is about them pressing charges for a serious violent crime. Not about them getting angry
If you cant see the difference Id say you and Mike Nifong probably would get along fine.
skdadl:
“For those who don’t know, Christina Hoff Sommers is a right-wing American ideologue”
So what? Thats not even a scientific argument. Every person in academia have a political opinion. Christina Hoff Sommers is a Philosophy professor of ethics.
“and I know of no feminist of any kind who takes her writing seriously or even considers her a feminist.”
She doesnt need their permission either, they do not control reality Their opinions doesnt matter, facts matter. The error you make is called: Argumentum ad populum
“Ariel Levy is a completely different kind of writer, a writer for the New Yorker who does pop sociological profiles of younger women.”
Also irrelevant, facts and content are what matters. Why you waste time gossiping over the person – is anyones guess but irrelevant for the subject. As Assange and Wikileaks so brilliantly tells us.. Analysing the material is the important part – sources are not.
“I don’t need instruction in Feminism 101, and I think I’ll stay away from this discussion until admin returns.”
Come back when you have scientifcally sound arguments. A person voting a different party than you do is not a real argument.
Pugget:
”As for there being no evidence that rape is about power, I refer you to the seminal work in the field: ”Men Who Rape: The Psychology of the Offender,” A. Groth”
Well thanks for the source but science today is less political and more objective than it was in the years following the Vietnam War and Groth made those claims 1979 when people more or less though Communism resulted in freedom. The rape studies I refer to was made during the 90s after evolutionary psychology and sociobiology broke the ”no genetics-rule” They could not possibly have been included in the 1979 book.
”As for your numbers about ”less fertile-appering” women being raped less, yes, older women are less victimized.”
When the difference is 1000s of percent, we need better explanations than ”victim of opportunity”
”The majority of rapes take place between acquaintances, which naturally directs them toward age similar cohorts.”
The problem with that claim is: What is the definition of ”acquaintances”? Such a term can include virtually anybody in todays modern society, classmates, co-workers, patients, etc it could mean anything. Also while its very true the women are often young thats not equally true for the men committing the rapes. The ”feminist champion” police chief Goran Lindberg was in his 60s the girls were in their teens.
”Since the majority of rapes are committed by sexually active men of a sexual active age, the age of the victims falls into a similar range.”
Since the invention of viagra, men can be sexually active much longer than theories from the 70s would assume.
”Note that the ever popular media stories about older men hunter younger women on college campuses do not make up a very large portion of actual rape cases – just those that make it to the headlines.”
The majority of actual rape cases cant be used for anything since they either a) dont find the suspect, b) cant prove the suspect is the perp, or c) lack basis for claiming a rape was even committed in the first place. You need to base claims on people in jail for rape. Where it can be claimed proven he did commit the crime rape.
”As for the racial element in rape prosecutions, yes, minorities are often scapegoated for rapes they did not commit.”
Now you need to make up your mind, do the police need to be able to convict men for rape on the womens stories only or not? It doesnt matter shit whether the man is black or white since every black man is also as a man.
”In my own community it’s not Blacks but Hispanics who bare the brunt of this. Yet, even after normalization, white men are the most prevalent offender in my area. Clearly there is some racism at work.”
Are you talking about being suspect of rape or convicted of rape based on womens stories? Cause you need to understand that a hispanic man is also always a man.
”Curiously, you do contradict yourself in your comment. You say: ”The ability to have sex is the aim. Not the sex itself.””
No I do not contradict myself. Its a basic fact of evolutionary psychology: Women mainly look for a number of men to choose resources, men mainly look for a number of women to choose genetics from. (David Buss et.al) Of course both parties are certain THEY have the moral right to have many while the partner should only have ONE.
”I would completely agree with this statement. What you’ve expressed here is a demonstration of power over another.”
That would not mean your theory would be rape is about power, that would mean your theory is sex is about power
”It’s not about the sex. It’s about the ability to have sex whether you want it or not.”
Thats scientifically true of sex in general.
Feminist reseacher Charlene Muehlenhard actually checked this for a fact. In a study published 1988 in ”journal of sex research” she asked college-age women whether they only had sex they wanted
The women replied
——————————-
98% had experienced unwanted sexual actions
46% had experienced unwanted sexual intercourse
Questions for you:
1) Are those women rape victims according to you?
2) Are those women victims of any other crime according to you?
”Let’s take a clear question and see if we can at last agree what would constitute sexual assault (not rape, but assault).”
Ok
”Would taking off a condom in the middle of sex and then continuing to have sex despite a woman’s protests constitute a crime?”
I dont know if it would be a crime (Fraudelent behavior?) but it sure as heck would not be rape unless she tried to get off him and he physically prevented her beyond what could be considered ”normal playful manner”
”If not, why not?”
Because then every guy getting a child because the woman lied about being on the pill would be a victim of rape and women in 1000s would be in prison for lying about having protected sex.
ok thank you erik, that was …enlightening 0.o
I’ll stop discussing this with ya now, no point. have fun living in your little world. don’t be surprised if it keeps on clashing with reality though.
tomi:
“What I can not fathom or accept however, is how can either one of these two women be so selfishly motivated that they would stop the world on its heels of a new revolution to impugn the most vulnerable in this organisation because they may have been exposed to an STD?”
You are mistaken, the women initally did not want a rape-circus. The police at Klara Närpolis are the selfish ones really.
“Does this make sense? There is absolutely no proportionality here whatsoever in any sane reasoning, call it “radical feminism” or the need to grow up.”
Big difference! Racical feminism enforces women acting like children as a human right to be protected.
“That is why I can not accept this at face value. It is so extremely disproportionate and twisted that there must have been some underlying agenda in place to begin with.”
No, the underlying agenda here is the one we have been aware off for a long period of time in Sweden. Basically crazy-feminism with lots of money and power infiltrating police, schools and other “strategic positions” for gender struggle.
“Even these two narcissistic women with sexual ambitions and unrealistic expections resulting from their short fling with JW know that you do not go to the police about an STD issue over a man who has just leaked 150k documents against the pentagons wishes… nobody is that stupid. So what’s up?”
Yes, they are that ego and stupid! Thats the reality of genusvetenskap.
Go google translate and enjoy.
http://vrproj.vr.se/detail.asp?arendeid=72976
Transient guest:
“ok thank you erik, that was …enlightening 0.o”
What was? Do specify, right now I dont beliveve a word you are saying.
“I’ll stop discussing this with ya now, no point. have fun living in your little world. don’t be surprised if it keeps on clashing with reality though.”
So instead of using actual arguments, you belittle me personally? Thats mature, wow! Acting like a 12 year old is so impressive. Should I perhaps worship your ability to again and again confuse what is popular and what is true?
@ Erik,
I translated that page, read it and I can’t find anything even remotely related to this subject in that material. Sorry.
But I’m afraid you don’t get my points. Esp where you said:
“You are mistaken, the women initally did not want a rape-circus. The police at Klara Närpolis are the selfish ones really.”
My points are:
These women are not stupid, obviously.
These women know what is at stake is far more serious and deadly than any imagined STD that JW could harbor..
These women know the timing is critical to the evolution of something much bigger than their biological urges…
These women know that you don’t walk into a police station and claim a condom broke with someone who is wanted by the pentagon for the unprecidented leaking of war documents..
These women should be grown up enough to know that if they wanted a serious relationship with any man you don’t sleep with him right away to begin with as well. And you don’t cry to the police about needing to force a man wanted by the pentagon to take an std test.. putting him in a pandoras box that will never be closed because of the hooks that are available within….
They are not so young and naive that they don’t know all of the above.
from eric : “A study by special agents at US Airforce 1992 concluded at least 60 percent of the accusations were pure bullshit- After doing the actual study they contacted the women and asked them WHY they had made false reports: Of the women who answered the result was:
20% Revenge
20% Compensate feelings of guilt or shame
13% Thought she could be pregnant
12% Conceal an affair
Thought she might have caught a VD was 3%”
I would like to know where you find those “facts”, seems to me very dangerous to write this kind of thing.
I think this man (eric) has a real problem with womens, not only with “radical feminist” ones, and not only in the assange case. And he wants very very well advertise for his site !
tomi:
The point was that the gender-theory-crowd see that kind of bullshit as valid science.
Regarding the women
Yes everything you say about them is valid
The problem is
Due to feminist education
They dont care
They dont care about anything but themselves, their opinions and their feelings.
I have discussed online with Anna Ardin and so have several friends. She is PC in every kind possible.
PC makes any person – regardless intelligence – act like an idiot.
It is a case of female jealousy and revenge. That is the cause, spiced up with radical feminism and political ambition in a political climate where the ruling dogma is radical feminism (it is taught at university, universally, not just for gender study majors).
The weapon; legal charges, because it is so easy in Sweden, due to the power of said dogma.
That sums it up, really.
(Erik. Mitt vanskapliga rad ar att tagga ner ett par snapp. Du borjar bli lite flasig.)
@ Erik.. this is the first time I’ve heard anyone say they have had direct communications with Anna Ardin. Is this in fact correct?
You have had direct communication with her since this episode?
Can someone translate this?
http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/1.2118961/har-ar-forhoret-med-assange-ord-for-ord
I find it funny that Assange was worried that the interview would be leaked (especially to Expressen). And now it’s there…
dougui:
“I would like to know where you find those “facts”
I find them in something called “science” the absurd idea that the validity of your claims would be based on tested facts and not moral values or political considerations.
Google “USAF Charles McDowell”
“seems to me very dangerous to write this kind of thing.”
Seems kinda funny thats what the Pentagon told Wikileaks. You would actually try the same argument although wikileaks debunked it completely?
As I explained already
Police drops most rape investigations today cause
a) Cant find suspect
b) Cant prove suspect was the actual perp
c) Cant even find basis for the claim rape was committed
“I think this man (eric) has a real problem with womens, not only with “radical feminist” ones, and not only in the assange case. And he wants very very well advertise for his site !”
I dont have problems with women, you however sir have a serious problem with truth, facts and science. Your moral attack on me is very similar to a cleric attacking people for heresy
You cant prove a single thing, yet people are not allowed to say against you anyway.
tomi:
“Is this in fact correct? You have had direct communication with her since this episode?”
No, I knew about her before this episode!
But I only spoke briefly with her regarding the “student lyrics at Uppsala University she couldnt stand”
Anonymous,
the assange interview is too long to paste here. for google translation, either use the google chrome browser (download from their site),
OR go to their translate site:
http://translate.google.com/
and enter the URL of the page you wish to translate.
Never knew men in Sweden could be so scary. So much for one of Europe’s enlightened social democracies.
Isn’t it interesting how Julian Assange himself–the man with the most at stake in this scenario–is actually behaving with grace and dignity when it comes to making comments? Here’s his direct quote when asked about his relationship with the women: “My cultural values are to protect people’s private lives and to never criticize women. I think that is correct and I will continue to do that in this case.”
tomi,
You broke down well each element. I too believe that there was an agenda perpetrated from someone high who knew these women would carry out the scheme against Assange. They deliberately arranged it by a staged apparatus using the Christian Socialistic Democratic Left seminar to gain foothold so JA could address their concerns. I hope someone or JA contacts the leader of the Christian SDL movement and informs them what these women were up to. They should make a new enquiry on this individual.
What is intriguing here is that women were chasing him and had an ulterior motive to coerce, seduce, and have sex in return for their hospitality. If they were decent and wanted to protect themselves from “molestation” or “rape” or whatever you call it, they would not place themselves in a vulnerable situation alone with a man and in this case, JA. It is natural when two people of opposite sex are alone in the room, the attraction to have a consensual sex is strong.
I too believe that in this case JA was raped and exploited.
To add, JA should have asked these women first if they are infected with STD. It is the womens’ fault for not warning JA first if they did and not in the middle of the act.
Another confusing part is that both women knew each other. They are playing the game that both were astonished by JA’s betrayal. In fact, they knew beforehand, the game plan. I think these women totally made fool out of JA. I think these women are street bullies!
To cover up their stunt acts, they had to report it to the Police Station or Expressen or whoever that was involved to create further havoc for JA.
So, whatever happened to cray fish party, the cheese intake, park romance, her buying gifts and ticket, and taking him finally to the apartment? Did this generosity fall apart that quickly to end up in the courts against JA? This is ridiculous and inhumane! I think these women are trouble makers and have absolutely no conscience of accountability that they were the stalkers and are in the wrong.
A man is a man; his instincts are different from the women. Women are passive and men are built by nature to be the aggressive because they are the one’s that take the lead in a natural way.
Erik,
“The women bought him gifts, paid for transport, and provided housing and food.”
“And so did my pals earlier, are you saying they are gay and secretly want to pressure me into sex?”
I think these girls are gay or bisexual. A/c to the above reports, one of them has lesbian disco clubs.
@Siboni:
‘A man is a man; his instincts are different from the women. Women are passive and men are built by nature to be the aggressive’
You’re making assumptions again. For that is *not* the way it works in Sweden.
Pugget,
I did a study – profiling of violence on men and women in depth. The sex offenders does not have to be serial killers, but they can change partners and rape the opposite party without calling it a rape. Some call it “emotional rape” others experience “physical rape.”
Some are social offenders and other are non social offenders.
There are various typology of rapists such as anger retaliation rapist, sadistic rapist, power assertive, and some are “Power Reassurance Rapist. ”
To define briefly, the power reassurance rapist type, the primary aim is sexual behavior, but she/he needs an assurance to elevate his/her own self-status. For this person the sex act validates her position of importance. She perceives as a loser and by controlling another human being she hopes to make herself believe that she is important. if only temporarily. For this reason, she uses only enough force to control her victim.
This kind of rapist is concerned with the physical welfare of his victim and will not usually harm him intentionally. She operates under the assumption that her victim actually enjoys the rape. She may coerce his victim to exchange conversation of called “dirty talk” and the encounter begins.
These power reassurance rapist may contact their victim to inquire about their health, as though they are concerned.
(Holmes & Holmes).
Rick:
Sweden has abnormal moral ethics. Therefore, I cannot help resolve their twisted degenerated psychological issues.
Sorry!
Rick,
if we change the course of nature which was designed by the law of nature for a man to be the dominant ( I don’t mean in a harsh tone), then there is an imbalance in the structural roles. As a result, we have what is called the extremism in Sweden!
Is Sweden a democratic nation? If so, then the laws should be applicable to both sexes equally. Equality is the key to resolve any problem.
transient guest,
I am sure JA has travelled before to Sweden and may not have had this crisis. Why after Wikileaks became evident, that we are hearing this move from two females? It is absurd!
Something does not add up. I have my own findings, but will keep it to the end. I just want to see who, why, and what started this whole fiasco.
I apologize for writing in segments, because each segment covers a certain topic.
tomi writes to Erik:
tomi
@ Erik.. this is the first time I’ve heard anyone say they have had direct communications with Anna Ardin. Is this in fact correct?
You have had direct communication with her since this episode?
–
@Erik, If you know AA, then would you have by any chance (I am just asking) have redirected these comments to them? If they read this, then they are definitely going to be ultra Feminazis! I mean challenge the pro JA crowd to get even! I have seen the scorn of women, they are venom of a snake!
Erik, are you a female from their gang? It sounds like you are talking from both sides of your mouth. Your foot is on shaky ground, lol.
My finishing thoughts on this for now is what if Anna Ardin had sex with her drug supplier who had just sold her a bag of weed.
Would she then go to the police and report a broken condum and insist he get tested?
(radical feminism my blooming a**… intellectual masterbation is more like it)
Feminists in heat, with their biological clocks ticking ?
1 in 20 is psychopath/sociopath (women included)
Reminds me of a case where a feminist picked up a man from a beer parlor — took him to her apartment, got him more drunk, then had sex — charged him with rape — Case was eventually dismissed
Siboni:
“I think these girls are gay or bisexual. A/c to the above reports, one of them has lesbian disco clubs.”
Thats a politically correct career IMAGE thing in Sweden! Leftwing politicians specially often play themselves as representatives of weak poor minority groups they do not belong in themselves! You can even find pictures of Social democrat leader Mona Sahlin in a Veil although she is not a muslim.
And you find lots and lots of heterosexual PC persons around the HBT crowd supporting whatever they do. And also, the big “womens issues” activist Police chief Goran Lindberg was privately a rapist, sadist and a buyer of sexual services as presented on our blog. This is the madness of PC, lots of people representing things they personally are not.
They just wanna control others. not follow the same rules themselves. Hypocrites is the correct definition.
<<<In particular Lindberg was a staunch enemy of sexism in the police force. He argued with colleagues, made speeches and built up a reputation as a tireless proponent of women’s rights.<<<
""‘A man is a man; his instincts are different from the women. Women are passive and men are built by nature to be the aggressive’""
"You’re making assumptions again. For that is *not* the way it works in Sweden."
Actually! Its exactly the way it normally works in sweden, its just that PC is a theory that makes people believe if only they would use different words reality would change. For that reason most swedes are trained to again and again repeat things that are generally not true.
<<<The theory behind the PC view of the world is that if you change the language, you change what the language describes, because perception alters reality: non-sexist expressions, for example, help to foster non-sexist thoughts.<<<
"if we change the course of nature which was designed by the law of nature for a man to be the dominant ( I don’t mean in a harsh tone), then there is an imbalance in the structural roles. As a result, we have what is called the extremism in Sweden!"
Thats a correlation, you cant claim a causality with just a corralation. Its true we have extremism, its true their is human nature with more testosterone in men than women. You cant make causal claim with just that though.
"Is Sweden a democratic nation? If so, then the laws should be applicable to both sexes equally. Equality is the key to resolve any problem."
Yes laws should be equal
There are two definitions of equality unfortunately
1. Equality of opportunity
2. Equality of result
The supporters of 2. always end up supporting unequal rules and laws.
The equality law of sweden is not equal, it more or less says that unequality is allowed anyhwere there is lack of women.
"@Erik, If you know AA, then would you have by any chance (I am just asking) have redirected these comments to them?"
I dont know AA personally, I have discussed with her once or twice in my life… however you can easily contact her at the Rebella blog or the Ardin blog. You can even try her phone number that is easlily accessible online… although most likely she stopped using it when a million reporters from all over the world started calling.
"If they read this, then they are definitely going to be ultra Feminazis! I mean challenge the pro JA crowd to get even! I have seen the scorn of women, they are venom of a snake!"
I dont even know what you mean with that.
"Erik, are you a female from their gang? It sounds like you are talking from both sides of your mouth. Your foot is on shaky ground, lol."
I have no idea what you talk about, I am not a female and I do not support their PC craziness.
"My finishing thoughts on this for now is what if Anna Ardin had sex with her drug supplier who had just sold her a bag of weed. Would she then go to the police and report a broken condum and insist he get tested?"
Buying drugs is illegal here, her political PC career would be gone if she confessed to such acts.
How about people talking about Sweden actuallty learn somethings about Sweden?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/aug/01/goran-lindberg-sweden-crime-palme
tomi,
I agree with you both. There are times women in one of the rich muslim nation have abducted men at nights and raped them in their apartments and left them next morning on the drive way. It is shocking news, but nobody discusses about it in the press. The men got sucked into their wealth and were naive. They thought that these women would never harm them. By the way they did.
Erik,
Your quote, “The theory behind the PC view of the world is that if you change the language, you change what the language describes, because perception alters reality: non-sexist expressions, for example, help to foster non-sexist thoughts.<<<
"if we change the course of nature which was designed by the law of nature for a man to be the dominant ( I don’t mean in a harsh tone), then there is an imbalance in the structural roles. As a result, we have what is called the extremism in Sweden!"
Thats a correlation, you cant claim a causality with just a corralation. Its true we have extremism, its true their is human nature with more testosterone in men than women. You cant make causal claim with just that though."
There are certain social norms and the general perception abides by this moral code and perceives right from wrong. I am not sure how spiritual you are. But I believe that God did create man and woman. He said that man should be the head of the household, labor (therefore, he has more strength in his body and a logical mind), and the woman should be his help-mate. If this family structure is broken down and women behave like men taking the role of lesbianism, then the perception is distorted. It is not how the laws were created. A woman cannot have sex with another woman, period or a man with a man.
I have found from research study that these individuals are extremely depressed despite having such a relationship and come for therapy. Many have changed their life and started normal lifestyle only to find happiness. At least, some are trying.
Why the distortion of perception is another story. There are lot of factors involved. Societal norms evolves and people go with the popular trend without understanding the abc of the spiritual side.
What I am saying is if these women read the "How to Smear the Hero," they might challenge the supporters of JA just to get back at us. Women can behave like snakes if they want to challenge.
The reason I am saying this because their behavior reflects of someone having a jekyl and hyde syndrome. They were friends and each one had their share of relationship and then turn around and create such a drama is absurd.
I have read reports from other blogs that say that this rape allegations makes no sense. They think that these women could be used by the intelligence to smear on JA and this flip flop accusations are simply a diversion.
There are others that believe may be it was staged so JA can show the world that his leaking the Pentagon papers was not an insider job. These accusations are created to show the world that he was indeed targeted by the opposition group.
@ Eric
“Buying drugs is illegal here, her political PC career would be gone if she confessed to such acts.”
That is exactly my point. Exactly why I posted that senerio.
She would know what would happen to her by going to the police over a broken condum with her drug supplier.. And she didn’t know what would happen to Julian Assange by doing the same??
Please…..
To dissect this event on another angle:
This is hypothetical based on how others see and I would like to focus on other possibilities.
Either way, I would like to wait and see, if he has used this event for his own agenda. These women might be up to some mischief and did not handle the allegations well.
Sooner or later, people will begin to suspect JA to have orchestrated these allegations. He has weighed the benefit over cost and does not really care about the smear. The smear may actually help him in the long run and that is exactly how be believes and these women may have helped him to fulfill that goal. Otherwise, no women in the right mind will behave as they did after having an affair and good time with JA. Or may be he did not have any affair. Anything is possible with this triangulated affair.
Something does not add up!
Good night!
tomi,
Can you elaborate this. I did not fully understand your implications. Thanks!
@ Eric
“Buying drugs is illegal here, her political PC career would be gone if she confessed to such acts.”
That is exactly my point. Exactly why I posted that senerio.
She would know what would happen to her by going to the police over a broken condum with her drug supplier.. And she didn’t know what would happen to Julian Assange by doing the same??
Please…..
Why I say the above is because after knowing that JA would be the target of gossip due to the Pentagon leak, he would surely have maintained his safety of conduct. It is critical at this point in his life and he cannot afford such drastic gossips. This would mar his image internationally. The timing of his association with these women is a question mark.
Or he did not really care for what he believes in and for his image otherwise he would be cautious!
@ Siboni
There may be an underlying level of perversity indemic in the political system of Sweden. No more so than any other country and probably less than many though. So what?
That it has taken on the profile of “sexual equality” I won’t argue or dispute. Again, so what? What else is new?
But this is not an excuse or an intellectual excercise for debate in what happened to JW. This is my point.
From reading all the above posts from everyone, one could come away with believing that Anna A and her side-kick Pinkie were brainwashed into believing that the right thing to do would be to naively go to the police over a broken condum about a man who just leaked 150 war documents against the Pentagons will…..
Yet, it is predictive that she would not be so “brain washed” when it comes to actually putting herself in jeopardy by doing the same action she did to JW if he had been her drug supplier…
Now that we have established that dichotomy, I hope we can stop using “radical feminism” as the excuse here and look instead at deeper implications. Because it sure is not just a brainwashed society that you can blame here…
One meta-moral of this debacle is: never allow yourself to become a public figure, especially not one trying to promote justice. The media and the public at large will not rest until your character is shred into a thousand pieces, never to be put back together. Julian will never be able to recover from this, even if he’s exonerated.
A pox on everyone’s house for this farce. I’m so disgusted.
@Chris,
I might agree with most of what you feel, except I think he will recover from this; and the irony might be, that the plan of this set-up might be leaked.
But it’s another lesson for you men, to keep your sausages in the wrapper, if you’re fighting against the Mafia! Because there are no rules or conventions of war for protecting the ‘Have a Lots’ against the ‘Have Nothings!’
This is a conspiracy between the Pentagon and the Swedish Social Deomocrat Party to have Julian Assange arrested and extradited to the USA.
tomi,
Your quote:
@ Siboni
There may be an underlying level of perversity indemic in the political system of Sweden. No more so than any other country and probably less than many though. So what?
That it has taken on the profile of “sexual equality” I won’t argue or dispute. Again, so what? What else is new?
But this is not an excuse or an intellectual excercise for debate in what happened to JW. This is my point.
From reading all the above posts from everyone, one could come away with believing that Anna A and her side-kick Pinkie were brainwashed into believing that the right thing to do would be to naively go to the police over a broken condum about a man who just leaked 150 war documents against the Pentagons will…..
Yet, it is predictive that she would not be so “brain washed” when it comes to actually putting herself in jeopardy by doing the same action she did to JW if he had been her drug supplier…
Now that we have established that dichotomy, I hope we can stop using “radical feminism” as the excuse here and look instead at deeper implications. Because it sure is not just a brainwashed society that you can blame here…”
I agree that in other countries and as well as the U.S has the underlying level of perversity, but we are discussing this issue is because of the way the two women, the press, and the prosecutors handled this case. It is absurd.
It is politically motivated!
Moreover, JA became an international figure overnight and the expectation was great to further the cause. I believe the news of such an allegation might have caused legit interest from the people of Britain, U.S, India, and Europe.
The further the case lingers, the more people are going to be interested how the outcome will be resolved. People have their own speculations of what really triggered the accusations and where it is leading to.
Here, in the U.S, the consensus believe that Wikileaks might allow for the govt. to ban the Constitutional rights in the pretext of safety for our military and that the nation is at war. I can understand that. We do not want the freedom of speech to be an hindrance to our individual rights of life, liberty, and property. We do not want another entity to be used to obstruct our freedoms based on the Amendment to the Constitution. We have to weight the cost over Wikileak. The cost here is losing our individual rights. I am aware change of course is a sacrifice and it takes a lot of courage and perseverance to attain the outcome.
I wish JA would be cautious in the future. We do not want to undermine JA’s abilities and real goals for inventing Wikileaks. That said, I do not like to see the U.S civilians being duped in the end. I wish JA the best to resolve this issue successfully! I do not wish to see Sweden poking its political nose in the affairs of U.S. by using Assange as their hostage! This is anathema!
Franko,
The new subtlety of Condom = holding JA as a hostage.
They ran out of excuses and now they have to use some loophole that tarnishes JA’s image. Either it it bribery or it is a deliberate act for some insidious purposes to be met.
Internationally Sweden has lost its image in the matters of judicial due process of law.
I dont understand whats the problem above
People still dont get it, still wanna believe in CIA/Pentagon/USA conspiracies wow!
You simply do not get it
What happened to Assange happens to other people on regular basis in Sweden
Nothing new about it!
It has happened many times.
The drugdealer argument is stupid
The reason the girl would not press charges against a drugdealer is because that would mean she was a criminal who went to the police and confessed that!
The reason she would go to police over assange is
Having sex with him is not criminal
She can confess doing that to police
And then police can punish Assange for the crime of “not treating her like she wanna be treated”
For you the special thing is that it was Assange getting treated this way What you fail to understand
Is that Assange to them is just representative of “MEN”
To them its no difference whatsoever
What he has done to USA is completely irrelevant
Its not stupidity, the women are not stupid
They simply do not care!
Franko:
What do you mean by these women leading heterosexual men to drink and suicide? I can understand that they may make them drink to seduce, but why the suicidal part?
I have heard that Sweden has a high rate of Suicides. Is that correct?
Yes, JA should find a good woman. I have heard from reports that he was anxious during his first divorce because of the custody of his son and the court case lingering which can be stressful. I hope he will not breakdown again due to this nonsensical allegations leading to this case. I hope he will remain strong. Some men and women are extremely sensitive and cannot handle the emotional stress. He cannot go through another one.
Erik:
If what you are saying is true, then I think women in Sweden can be callous and lack conscience! My special prayers for Swedish men and women that God will convict their conscience and brighten their lives to see the truth!
Siboni, the myth that Sweden has a particularly high suicide rate is one that I always hear from Americans in particular. I don’t know where it came from. I personally never found any reason to believe that is was true. Anyway, your question made me take a quick look at statistics at Wikipedia (which you could also have done). I found proof for what has been my own personal myth or preconception. Japan, Korea, and former Soviet republics have the highest rates. I thought so, now I know.
And what does it have to do with smearing a hero?
This debate has been reduced to rantings… sorry… Let’s hope there are some new facts to discuss soon, otherwise it will continue to be an obsession for a small group of people and not very interesting.
Siboni:
“If what you are saying is true, then I think women in Sweden can be callous and lack conscience!”
In Sweden?
Women in any country can do that
The difference in Sweden is in the reception of the state
In Sweden the dominant idea (which originated in other countries) is that since women have been “opressed” they must now be given time and space to find their “own” way.
Problem is off course
Women have no own way, they adapt in the ways needed to make men do the work needed.
There is off course no limit to emotional needs, the answer to the question “when is it enough?” is never!
Good luck fulfilling that
To: Siboni — Re: “why the suicidal part?”
Self destruction by alcohol or otherwise,
as a form of attempting to conform to criticism.
Was pointed out to me by an expert on lesbians.
To: Erik — “Its not stupidity, the women are not stupid .. They simply do not care!”
Do not care about the well being of Julian Assange
Do not care about the war killings
Egotistically want to criticize and dominate
Is this Anna Ardin? — http://sverigesradio.se/diverse/appdata/isidor/images/news_images/260/274368_366_250.jpg
Franko:
“Do not care about the well being of Julian Assange”
Off course not! He dissappointed them.
“Do not care about the war killings”
Yes off course they do, if you show them an enemy (hopefully an evil big corporation) they will protest like crazy. However they do not understand for a second the connection between wikileaks and less war killings. Thats too large a picture for self obsessed people like them.
They react on the helicopter video, and Ardin as an animal righter most likely went bananas when she watched the yugoslavian girl throwing puppies into a river. BUT they are activists, not nerds, they dont get wikileaks at all.
“Egotistically want to criticize and dominate”
Egoism? Yes!
“Is this Anna Ardin?”
I dont know, probably, otherwise this link should help
http://www.google.se/images?hl=sv&source=imghp&q=anna+ardin&gbv=2&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=
While their lawyer is scheming for legal action,
The Grrrls are are avoiding the public eye.
Why is Julian not getting do not comment advice?
As a public health matter, test all participants,
And proceed, or not, based on the findings.
If disease was transmitted, from whom to whom?
@ Eric, I’ve recently read somewhere that AA’s side-kick “Pinky”, is considered the darkhorse of this duo and coerced this little scam to bag JW.
It would make sense that one of them or even both together, are operatives, even from different bases. When compared to your theory which is that these two women are that shallow and narcisstic that they would distroy the figurehead of a journalistic revolution because of a torn condom and a triangulated affair.
I’m assuming you are not a woman. I think if you were a woman you would not be so ready to accept such a trite explaination.
Need I explain? That fundemental passions are linked in a womans brain to the deeper aspects of a man’s identity and what he brings from the world and to the world.
Therefore, I contend yet again, that there is more here than shallow, selfish and contemptable women who would sacrafice a figurehead of a major journalistic revolution because of a failed one night (or several) stands and a condum.
I know that a man.. might find this hard to grasp…..
DN.se came out with a new article yesterday, the purpose (effect) of which is to scare whistleblowers to not turn to WikiLeaks. It’s a long article but it boils down to hyperbole and rather rude rhetoric. My advice in situations like this is 1) separate the facts from the truth – very carefully; and 2) follow the money.
DN.se is owned by the powerful Bonnier concern. Bonnier have conducted a propaganda campaign against the Swedish Pirate Party from the get-go.
It’s OK to not like something. But it’s not OK to deliberately twist your so-called ‘news coverage’ and fudge the facts. DN more and more resemble a Fox/Rupert media organisation.
http://bit.ly/aum81m
celsius: We have to compare the population of Sweden against other countries and do the stats. I found that Sweden has the highest suicidal rate among European countries – 18.0 percent in 2006 for every 100,000 population. I don’t consider Russia to be a European country; may be they call it the eastern bloc.
There is a stats here:
Lithuania’s rates are:
75.6 / 100,000 for men
16.1 / 100,000 for women
Sweden has far lower values:
19.7 / 100,000 for men
8.0 / 100,000 for women
The US rates are:
17.6 / 100,000 for men
4.1 / 100,000 for women
The rates in Lithuania can be explained by unemployment, poverty and heavy drinking in the Russian speaking minority (google).
However, this discussion should not divert to this.
Franko
To: Erik — “Its not stupidity, the women are not stupid .. They simply do not care!”
Do not care about the well being of Julian Assange
Do not care about the war killings
Egotistically want to criticize and dominate
Is this Anna Ardin? — http://sverigesradio.se/diverse/appdata/isidor/images/news_images/260/274368_366_250.jpg”
Is it the one with the black jacket? They look like Portugese or French? There are too many AA’s in the one that Erik presented. I saw one Ana Ardin with black dress like an Amish type. I am not sure which one?
I don’t believe that women would go to such an extent to destroy JA, but someone was behind with this fiasco.
To tomi — “there is more here than shallow,
selfish and contemptible women”
5% of the population are psychopaths/sociopaths causing endless problems. Only a few become serial killers. — Anna Ardin’s pattern of serial accusation is there.
Yes, there is the lesbian/feminist background,
but the sociopaths’ effects on society is the theme.
Franko
To: Siboni — Re: “why the suicidal part?”
Self destruction by alcohol or otherwise,
as a form of attempting to conform to criticism.
Was pointed out to me by an expert on lesbians.
I did a study on the psychological dilemmas of the gay culture and found that they are extremely angry people and jealous of their partners. Many in the US has killed them brutally. They are on medications and are extremely depressed.
I hope we are not diverting to another issue while we have to focus on JA. Let’s wait to see the outcome from the judicial angle.
The STD does not show immediate results unless a person has it for sometime. I hope these women are not trying to put the blame on JA and exploit him further. This is getting dangerous!
What’s this?
http://cryptome.org/0002/wikileaks-rape.htm
Is this a genuine WL insider leak, or is someone taking an opportunity to kick a man while he’s down?
@exile:
cryptome has been posting stuff from this supposed “wikileaks insider” for some time now. Jacob Appelbaum has refuted what s/he has said in the past, I have no reason not to think that this rubbish is thoroughly refutable as well. I have a really hard time taking someone who talks about Julian’s “Austin Powers lifestyle” at all seriously.
Yes, John Young at Cryptome has made clear pretty much this exact same poor opinion Julian Assange for a couple of years as far as I can tell — though he has gotten quite a bit of “good publicity” in the last 6 months in particular.
I wondered very early on if this might be a psych-op directed at Assange and Wikileaks — rather than a smear — and I found myself wondering this again today as a second week of one step forward, one step back concludes and “news” here consists of vague reports of dissention in the ranks at Wikileaks.
From Gawker
But then she said something elsewhere about a Wikileaks summit meeting in October — which would be, by all estimates I’ve seen well AFTER the release of the remaining Afghan Log Threat Assessments which require someone to do the initial and followup press/public relations.
I gather Assange and lawyer have been given no idea when they might be summoned nor have travel restrictions been imposed. It’s just — as we say — hanging.
I am baffled both by the leisurely pace of all this, all this “investigation” of very private events. I am gob-smacked at the prospect that there may be consideration that an accusation of “rape” can be made based on, what I can only imagine to be some sort “fraudulently obtained consent” charge, — the fraud having been discovered after the “consensual” act “magically” nullifying/revoking the original consent ? Would that be hours, days, months or years? The mind reels.
Men and women have been arguing and negotiating about condoms probably for over a century now — I still cannot conceive of making a police complaint.
I have to wonder what outcome — other than this rather embarrassing, rather distasteful, enlessly prolonged mishegas (yiddish — craziness) — they hoped for. Jail time? Oh please. A black mark on his permanent record. Creating dissention within Wikileaks perhaps.
Although I wondered early on if these “legal matters” might present some overwhelming distraction to the threat assessment release, I now think the distraction has become the “new normal.”
I think Wikileaks is charting new territory — I try my best not to second guess their decision-making processes. I just with them well and courage and solidarity.
Ooops — I forgot to thank you all and Admin (Nicholas John Mead, I presume?) — I’ve been reading along faithfully, almost posted several times but didn’t. I really appreciate being able to ignore most of all that other and sundry junk … Thanks again.
I cannot stick the Julian Assange saga onto lesbian
feminism — unless I use sociopath as the glue.
For most people, emotions are a feedback of their actions. Those without conscience caused the trouble.
Corbett Report has good background on psychopaths — Then there is Alex Jones infiltrating the Bohemian Club.
Jesus Christ was crucified because he
overturned the tables of the psychopathic bankers.
The Cryptome anonymous writer has cleared JA’s name temporarily, but is anxious about the funds not being dispersed to Wikileaks rightfully. I hope JA does the right thing in supporting the cause of Wikileak by transparency in the accounting of the donations. The editor always should remain a bit humble (sorry, JA) in order to win the subordinates. A good boss always listens and is flexible to the needs of his employees. A generous heart wins the support of even his enemy!
Here we do not have for once “sex and rape problem,” but money issue. Wow, this can be resolved, if JA can shift a bit from his tight position.
The characterization of Austin Powers is funny, because I always associated the evil to act similar to Dr. Claw and Inspector, Gadget!
If JA does distribute the funds for the good cause as Crymptome has complained I shall not send my financial support for JA or Wikileak. This is bribe to do the right thing! Sorry!
Corrections: I meant “IF JA DOES NOT DISTRIBUTE the funds for the good cause…..
Franko,
I have not been a keen digger of the Scandinavians, but since I am blogging here for the sake of being an internet activist in releasing the shackles of JA and I would definitely do it for others (as I have always done so at the expense of being love/hated by others which I don’t really care. I always knew that people hate one’s guts but then deep within they have the greatest respect for that person).
I just checked some videos on youtube about Sweden. I think it is beautiful nature wise , but quite shocked by too many female feminazis creating their own culture. At least I have an overview about the Swedish Government.
“female feminazis” do not understand that beyond
the tipping point of no return, instinct and reflexes
take over, a Man becomes a sex (not love) machine
When good jokes and cartoons emerge,
the public is ready to move on.
“I think AJ is too loud as compared to JA.”
A good interview would be Julian Assange on Alex Jones
I would like to see WikiLeaks, not just leak,
but also do documentary in collaboration with others?
Thanks all for your comments. I’ve been offline for a few days but all is back to normal now. I’ll respond to some of the comments left since this one on 30th August.
@Kailey, Sorry I must have missed the smiley
Thanks for the comments. I think there are plenty of forums of debate out there on the net about issues raised by WikiLeaks although maybe a forum dedicated to WikiLeaks issues could be a good idea? I can´t help you on specifically Canadian issues though. Try to keep the debate on here related to Assange though please and not Canada.
@Siboni, Sorry if I misquoted you – it’s hard to keep up with this conversation as so many comments have flooded in and I’m not spending 100% of my time moderating or replying unfortunately plus I’ve been offline for a few days. Your original post starting “Congratulations. I think you’re the only person who has looked at who the man really is…” got held in moderation automatically by the system but its online now. BTW, I’m not trying to smear anyone – I agree with exile and ashasekh that “admin and many of the contributors are trying to look at the real evidence objectively.” There’s enough smearing and confusion going on in this case without us adding to it! I’ve removed the link on Alex Jones too because it has nothing to do with this case.
@Oh I’ve Given Up Sorry but I’ve removed that anti-WikiLeaks site link you posted (plus related comments) because it has nothing to do with this “rape” case. There’s bound to be a lot of people capitalizing on this and trying to smear WikiLeaks so the site doesn’t surprise me.
@Rickard, You make probably one of the most sane and logical comment of this thread in your summary of what happened. It looks like a tale of jilted lovers and revenge pure and simple. Whether powerful interests are now trying to pervert and manipulate the case is another matter. I also agree that this is looking like turning into a debate over what is the official definition of rape – it could get widened in Sweden if Assange was charged.
@Rick, Sorry must have misread that Kjellstrand’s husband was the head of the justice department – thanks for picking up on it. Thanks vincible 1 for clearing it up.
@Erik, I also noticed that the Swedish press have tended to take this on-going Assange saga of their front pages at least at various points. Not sure whether this is intentional or just editorial policy. Maybe they’re providing some cover while they “sort it out” behind the scenes?
@Rick, The only reason I haven’t objected to Assange being called a “pig” is a) I’ve been offline unfortunately while traveling and b) “pig” doesn’t have the same connotations as “nazi”. One other thing – you clearly have an excellent understand of this case and Sweden but can you please tone-down or at least restrict the “woman bashing” that some women have found offensive on here. Saying things like: “The women are in control in Sweden” is a gross overstatement but I understand that women probably have more standing in Sweden than almost any other country.
A general comment – most people have kept on topic which is great. Can people please try and make their responses within one comment rather than commenting several times as it just looks like you’re spamming the site otherwise.
Whatever your views on women or men, try and keep it respectful and evidence based. I’ll be moderating more regularly again from now on so hopefully I can keep a grip on things too. I don’t think much more can be said now until more news emerges on the case.
BTW I’m sure that everyone has read Assange’s most recent interview in Aftonbladet by now but here it is for those that haven’t it was published on the 2nd of September – headline “Assange; It’s a circus” – which sums up it really:
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article7712747.ab
I wonder if the prosecutors are aware of the work of Franz Kafka.
I’d like to point out that the smear campaign against WikiLeaks is escalating significantly and that the mindless sheeple on line and on Twitter are promoting this campaign, often for their own interests and often because they’re just mindless.
The first part of the campaign is a spurious article by the Daily Beast, one of three sources presently involved in the systematic smear of WikiLeaks. They’ve recently published a very strange article implying they had an interview with Birgitta Jónsdóttir where she had less than flattering things to say about Jules.
This is totally out of character for Birgitta. She wouldn’t say anything like this even if she felt it. She and Jules have worked closely together on Collateral Murder and perhaps more importantly on the Modern Media Initiative. Her dedication to the principles of WikiLeaks would supersede any personal differences she had with Jules and she would know how damaging any such statements would be under the current circumstances.
What most probably has happened is the the same person behind the smear campaign at Cryptome, an individual of lesser and rather clumsy intellect, has fed a ‘story’ to the ad hit hungry right wing hawks at Daily Beast. Birgitta has one official email address; anything off Fastmail, Gmail, or Hushmail will by definition be anonymous. It’s likely this is what has happened here.
The second part is the absolutely stupid and transparent story Jules has gone underground. Perhaps he has – but how would any of those hyenas know it? Nowhere is there any indication why anyone suspected him of disappearing in the first place. Both Leif Silbersky and Marianne Ny have dismissed these ‘journalistic’ attempts as a non-story but the people behind the smear just keep on.
Do the story yourselves. Check the facts. The CIA/Pentagon are obviously trying all they can do ‘distract’ and to damage WikiLeaks in any way they can – and the sheeple of the world are too lazy and too indifferent to look into how they are being used.
On another note – a particularly shameful one for all Swedes: a ‘legal expert’ in Sweden was interviewed on morning TV this week and asked about the international ridicule of the Swedish justice system. Her response: ‘we Swedes shouldn’t be taken back by this – all evidence shows we can be more proud than ever’.
If that wasn’t a mouthful then I don’t know what is. Swedes really don’t see much of what’s going on outside their duck pond unless they make an effort. Their news is instead dominated by the coming national elections and what’s been happening to Victoria Silvstedt and Brittany. They really don’t see what we see.
For all the magnificent hardware infrastructure, Swedes in general remain extraordinarily clueless in this Internet age.
You can help the cause of WikiLeaks and the cause of truth in general by questioning those promoting spurious stories, by demanding second source corroboration, by looking beyond the alarmist headlines.
Cheers.
Hi Nicholas.
In making my new post I’ve seen what you’ve posted recently. And again I find an abundance of gross presumption. You’re supposed to be an investigative reporter of merit. And yet I find example after example of how you don’t hold yourself to the high standards you purportedly would want to be known for.
* ‘The women are in control in Sweden’ is a gross overstatement
No it is not. How long have you lived in Sweden? Do you even speak the language?
* ‘pig’ doesn’t have the same connotations as ‘nazi’
To you maybe. But both are hostile and pejorative. Yet you let the one go but came down hard on the other. This is prejudicial.
The use of ‘nazi’ by one of our colleagues here was to denote the fact that the radical movement is much of the mindless stuff that made up national socialism and fascism in the 1930s and 1940s. It definitely doesn’t have the ring you think it does for Swedes.
‘Pig’ on the other hand is about as hostile as you can get – for Swedes.
I’m amazed that someone like yourself, born and bred in one country and now resident in another, has not yet become aware of the great cultural differences between peoples.
As for women in this thread who can’t take their own medicine: how naive are you, Nicholas? You really don’t know where they’re coming from and why? I’d presumed you were smarter than that. You have a propaganda war on your hands and you seem singularly incapable of controlling it.
* It looks like a tale of jilted lovers and revenge pure and simple.
Fabius Maximus and many others would beg to disagree with you. On what basis do you see this as jilted lovers? Where? Have you any clue how Swedes treat casual sex? It is certainly not the same way they do in Spain. That much is for sure. But once again: you have almost literally NFC about conditions in Sweden yet are felling broad conclusions based on exactly what?
There are several English language sites out there today who have looked at the matter with a much more analytical approach. I suggest you see what they have to say.
As for all the rest: it’s painfully (and cringeworthy) obvious that outsiders have no clue what’s going on in that country from a cultural point of view. There’s also a lot of unabashed cowardice in this thread. The most important thing is to not let the powers that be continue to exploit this situation to smear WikiLeaks.
WikiLeaks is not any one person but a worldwide effort to keep the truth free. It seems that a number of ambulance chasers in this thread and elsewhere have somehow got out of touch with that subtle fact. It’s time to get back in touch again.
PS. I have to comment on this again: ‘the women are in control in Sweden is a gross overstatement’ – that’s just an outrageous statement and you have absolutely no grounds whatsoever to fell a comment like that. It does you discredit. Take your Google Translate into Flashback and see what Swedes say. You might just have to readjust your qualified opinion a bit.
This thread has now passed its usefulness. Barring any further idiocies, I find it unnecessary to continue. The initial ambition to provide English language news to those who didn’t speak the local lingo has gone over to supercilious judgements on Swedish culture and society. And it really looks ludicrous. Ciao.
Rick,
The women in Sweden’s Parliament has the highest level of political representation of women in the world; ten of the 22 ministers in the 2003 government were women, and 45% of the Riksdag members are women (encyclopedia).
If the general conception that women hold positions in the higher office and then being feminazis (a term used for lesbians), then we might find a discriminatory laws skewed and decision making with regards to JA and other men. That’s all!
I think their most effective reaction would be the release of the 15,000 remaining afghan Log threat assessments.
By orginal timeline, they should be ready for publication fairly soon.
Rick,
Touching on your post, I too believe that Bragita JonsDottir is dedicated to the cause of Wikileak. I think the Swedes have a problem of applying the evidence or being truthful in their statements. For instance, we heard so many different version from the two women and even the prosecutors. They flip-flopped – one time dropping the charges and then reinstating it.
Your have written “On another note – a particularly shameful one for all Swedes: a ‘legal expert’ in Sweden was interviewed on morning TV this week and asked about the international ridicule of the Swedish justice system. Her response: ‘we Swedes shouldn’t be taken back by this – all evidence shows we can be more proud than ever’.
This is so comical and I believe this woman, a legal expert or not, her head is buried in the sand. Or shall I say, her brains? She needs to get out of her little box – one track minded and do a proper investigation rather than get touchy about her ideals.
Swedes, you have lot to learn ahead!
admin.,
Thank you for the apology! However, I responded to Franko on Alex Jones quote by offering the link. I understand that our goal is to focus on smearing the hero or clearing his name? What a title!
You have said that, ” I agree with exile and ashasekh that “admin and many of the contributors are trying to look at the real evidence objectively.”
You mean we are not seeing it objectively? Where is the real evidence, when all along we hear the twisted allegations? I think this conjecture is little overstated.
“BTW I’m sure that everyone has read Assange’s most recent interview in Aftonbladet by now but here it is for those that haven’t it was published on the 2nd of September – headline “Assange; It’s a circus” – which sums up it really:
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article7712747.ab”
I don’t think I can read the published article as it is in Swedish. Can you post an English version of the sing-song language?
Franko,
I also agree with you that Assange should go on AJ’s radio show, because people in the U.S want to hear him so they can relieve their confusion on various issues such as 9/11 and this smearing stuff. I hope JA can come to U.S if all goes well. Assange will be a real hero on Alex Jones Show!
Can you translate that link admin. provided in English? I think JA is photogenic and seems a kind man! It is a tragedy to smear him.
Admin, I apologize if I am breaking down into segments. It is because in case you delete my post! Lots of laugh!
@siboni,
after seeing the passion with which you have expressed yourself here, I feel I must encourage you to start a political blog of your own–you certainly have a lot to say and make a strong case.
Surely your own site would serve as the best possible outlet for your lengthy and well developed theories on the whole smear campaign against Assange. Everything would be gathered in one place, like a book.
Also it could be an important center for debate about Wikileaks. I would definitely appreciate seeing you focus your energies in that way. Please do start a site and post the link here.
@Rick, If you’re going to throw a tantrum and walkout because I don’t agree with you that “women control everything in Sweden” then be my guest. If women are so much more powerful than men in Sweden, why do they earn less on average for a start? I’m not disputing that women have far more standing and influence in Sweden than most other countries – but bashing women like you are is no better than the “feminazis” who bash men you claim are running the country. As for your personal attack on my investigative skills, I merely blogged about this issue – I’m not writing an article on it. Blogging is quite different from journalism if you weren’t aware. I found out as much as I could up to a point and then this story has just snowballed and unlike you, I don’t have the time to check every link or theory that comes out about it. Sorry about that. And by the way, you’ll notice by my original post “How to smear a hero” that lead to these comments that I initially presumed like you it was some kind of CIA plot. After looking at the circumstantial evidence surrounding it, I’m now inclined not to think that but I would not be surprised that if by now, powerful interests have stepped in at some stage to take advantage of it. One thing I’m not going to do is use this entire Assange story to bash women like you. There’s enough people using it for political gain already. Finally, as regards a conspiracy, there’s absolutely no evidence of one (and it’s a pretty poor attempt if it was because it won’t stop WikiLeaks which is surely the ultimate aim) whereas as there is a lot of circumstantial evidence to suggest a jilted lover theory – i.e. a woman who felt used and cheated with strong feminist views who has dreamed-up and even blogged about “7 steps to legal revenge” and “What is and what isn’t rape” many years before this all happened.
Like some kind of crazed Alex Jones fanboy however, you think I’m just one of the “sheeple” who is too “lazy” to “wake-up” if I don’t think this a is a CIA “feminazi” conspiracy,. Well go ahead and join all those still trying to work out whether JFK was assassinated or whether 9-11 was an inside job, The rest of us “lazy” sods will focus on the more pressing and urgent blatant abuses of power that continue in the world while you spend the next 50 years trying to work out whether there was a plot to frame Julian Assange.
By the way, for everyone else, here is the story that Rick and Siboni referred to about Birgitta Jonsdottir, an Icelandic member of parliament who has previously helped WikiLeaks. I’m not quire sure how she got hold of the police records of the case by the way:
http://www.punemirror.in/article/15/201009062010090601080073470bf9d77/Revolt-in-wikileaks.html
@Siboni, Here is that Aftonbladet interview in poorly translated English:
Of course Birgitta Jonsdottir hasn’t got the police records on this case. Tabloid journalists haven’t got them either. Daily Mail wrote a story on heavily censored material and some people are trying to use that as fact. As if we know it all – no we don’t.
It would be better to read the whole original story from Daily Beast as to what Birgitta Jonsdottir really said about the case. For instance:
“I have never seen this as a conspiracy,” she said, adding that she has no reason to doubt—or affirm—the honesty of the two women making the charges against Assange. “I want to be neutral on this, because I don’t have the full story. I don’t want to diminish the seriousness of what they are saying.”
“Julian is brilliant in many ways, but he doesn’t have very good social skills,” she said. “And he’s a classic Aussie in the sense that he’s a bit of a male chauvinist.”
All you feminist bashers and woman haters can doubt Birgitta’s words all you like but it won’t change a thing. Swedish women are not equal with men yet, but they’re getting there and the rest of the world will eventually follow.
Thank you admin for just removing one of those comments. Feminist bashers have been interested in this not because of Wikileaks but because they are against feminists, rape charges and many other things.
If anyone has a facebook account, Birgitta Jonsdottir’s facebook page, appears to have an entry (16 ours ago?) by her clarifying and claiming quotes attributed to her were taken out of context.
I do not know how Facebook works. Because I do not have an account there I can’t expand to see full comment
link: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Birgitta-Jonsdottir/57082667630
Thanks for that Susan. It seems she’s not denying she thinks Assange should stand down but she does say her words have been “taken out of context”. Here is what she says on her Facebook profile in full:
A rather nice compendium (and takedown) of Cryptome’s various “exclusives” wrt to Wikileaks can be found here.
http://www.theoneclickgroup.co.uk/news.php?start=3920&end=3940&view=yes&id=5241#newspost
IMHO, John Young has employed the Bill O’Reilly’ technique in manufacturing a “controversy” about Wikileak’s “lack of transparency” regarding their finances. His characterizations of Assange’s life-style as “Austin Powers like” appears to be pure projection — distinctly undermined by first person accounts, for example, that to Guardian staff in the days leading up to the Afghan log roll-out. Young expressed “concern” followed by a “demand” followed by “outrage” that his demand was not met, followed by further “concern” – “demand” – “outrage” cycles. The Wall Street Journal has picked up the “story” — I do not know Wikileaks’ status, where they might be required to provide accounting, etc. I do not know reasonable and customary reporting standards for an organization like Wikileaks. I’m not sure why I should care. So far, I don’t.
As an admirer of Wikileaks and Assange, it’s easy to dismiss just how many people really really find leaking seriously frightening — anarchic, dangerous, out of control — their fear of the unknown future is palpable, very serious to them.
Anyone with a working memory knows (or can google to verify) that the remaining Afghan logs are due to be ready for publishing shortly. Afghanistan is in deep trouble — but there have not been the much “feared” Wikileaks-sourced reprisals. A major bank is failing. Corruption is even further undermining support for Karzai’s government. Violence in Pakistan is explosive again after a short lull for the floods. And Iraq keeps having explosions of its own.
After the Threat Assessments, video of the Granai aerial strike may be next — or something else.
The powers that be would really love it if they could deal with someone else — someone besides Assange.
Such a strange case. Basically, the “rape” revolves around the fact that Julian refused to shuffle himself to a clinic to be tested for sexually transmitted diseases. I should hope that the two women would be willing to undergo the same tests at the same time. Julian is allegedly accused of deliberately “sabotaging” a condom, and not even “having one” to “sabotage” in the other case.
The younger of the two women allegedly mumbled something in jest about “possibly being pregnant.” No wonder he didn’t call her back, or answer her calls. What an airhead she was to even joke about something like that. The egomaniacal lawyer for the two “victims” is eager to take center stage, and “defend their poor little savaged reputations.”
No doubt that Julian’s legal fees will be high when all is said and done. I am sure that the “victims” will arrange to cash in as well on their potential “Jerry Springer style glory holes.” We know that the lawyers will ride this one out for as long as po$$ible. In the end, it won’t be about sex at all, but rather, money, politics, and ego.
No matter who turns out to be responsible for the situation, I am certain that the Pentagon enjoys the temporary “derailment” of Mr. Assange’s life. Nothing quite like being under a microscope. It has to be very stressful for him, but he’s been through rough times before and will be fine, in my opinion.
When a man in a video told Julian that he was “like an angel,” Julian wasn’t “full of himself” but genuinely pleased that a person might think so. Many others are calling him a monster. Get ready for the “fireworks” that will fade away, and be quickly replaced by some other scandal.
It’s all about image isn’t it? The image cast on Wikileaks because of Assange or Assange casting the image on Wikileaks.
Becareful which way you land here. Which way you choose will determine the fate of the other. Do not be fooled into thinking that Assange is not critical to Wikileaks prominence and most of all gallantry. From his artful articulation to the white haired shaggy appearance (cuse the pun..) Assange makes a brave face, a strong indominable personna for Wikileaks.
Those who wish to undermine Wikileaks from the inside out or the outside in, need only ferment an interior mutiny to do it.
And of course there will be a Wikileaks if Assange is ousted, for a while. But without the force and image needed in todays world for such a needed revolution.
ashakesh:
@siboni,
after seeing the passion with which you have expressed yourself here, I feel I must encourage you to start a political blog of your own–you certainly have a lot to say and make a strong case.
Surely your own site would serve as the best possible outlet for your lengthy and well developed theories on the whole smear campaign against Assange. Everything would be gathered in one place, like a book.
Also it could be an important center for debate about Wikileaks. I would definitely appreciate seeing you focus your energies in that way. Please do start a site and post the link here.”
I am not sure this an encouragement or sarcasm on your part. I might start my blog soon, but currently busy with some major studies. I love politics and are keen on resolving and protecting other’s rights. News can be addictive and I try as much to avoid, but nevertheless, humans are curious in nature and they are like sponge. They want to absorb as much as possible in order to be or some service. I do believe the super natural power of God has kept certain people for some great service and that force pushes some people to dig in for answers. I believe that I have a purpose on earth and it might be great, but yet being humble to care for others.
Thanks again!
admin.
Thank you for your translation of Assange’s interview. I was quite surprised that you are negative about Rick. I believe that Alex Jones is a friend of JA as they met in Sweden or Iceland. I am not sure. You are right, we should avoid bringing AJ on this site. It does not serve the cause.
I am quite shocked by the response of Bragita JonsDottir on Assange. Whatever the police report she read is one sided and not Assange’s version. How could she not believe that this could be a conspiracy act committed to lure JA into this mess? I am appalled, because these women that arranged for the interview with the Socialist Democratic Christian Left and had shown hospitality, were definitely expecting something in return. Or what was their intent to bring in Assange in the first place?
And Admin, if you state that AA was used and her 7 points in how to take the revenge, then would it not be fair to say that she had some tricks up the sleeve? If she was so determined to avoid future mishaps or rebound, then she should have avoided such encounters with stranger like JA in the first place. Her involvement sure is a question mark.
I hope Bragita as a woman is not jealous that Assange had such a relationship with other women. A true woman would support Assange despite his weaknesses. I call him to be man who is emotional and was trapped. Men out there in the Swedish Judicial System should consider this psychological trap and as well the reality of this case against 2:1 ratio of allegations. The women knew each other and joined against one man speaks of volume in the conspiratorial act.
I am not a woman hater, but trying to make sense out of these women’s stories that is revealed in the press. Moreover, the behavior of the female prosecutors was another issue that culminated in the assumption that Sweden could be hijacked by women. We cannot generalize that all women are bad. Of course not! I would also like to see men in action. It is this imbalance of power that is causing the tug of war between the two genders.
BTW, admin, I think the press interview was conducted by Assange was very formal. I am glad to hear that he has given out his version and I hope the judicial system will weigh in impartially. I wish all of them the best and a lesson learned to be cautious and to be truthful!
tomi,
There is a saying that if the foundation of a house is weak, then the house collapses. In any organization, the employees do the designing of a project and the boss takes the credit. However, deep down the employee is content that he has made a great contribution. Likewise, in Wikileak if all concerned have put an effort, then they all deserve to be recognized. The power struggle will kill Wikileak. We cannot have too many cooks then they will spoil the soup. I think Assange should run the show and those can be humble and work as a team. There is nothing far better than a team players. I wish all of you the best!
admin:
“If women are so much more powerful than men in Sweden, why do they earn less on average for a start?”
They dont!
Warren Farrell has answered questions like this so many times its not even funny the same bullshit is repeated.
Jonsdottir has removed any negative comments or honest questions from others as to her actions on Facebook. She is NOT a spokesman, nor any official organizer of Wikileaks, that is her own self aggrandizement.
She is in the same camp as the other groupies, esp. interesting as a politician with a seat on the NATO council. Coattail hanger on until the going gets rough, then a fickle so-called “friend?”
Shameful she has chosen to dog a true freedom fighter and genius internet innovator and further damages JA’s credibility, rather than supporting the cause she does not understand or more likely, does not care to, to try and get more media attention for her own self, it’s her MO, she is known to be very contrary and self serving. Jonsdottir and Lamo should hook up-lol! They are both hated and for good cause by those who really know what’s going on, and care about freedom of speech and ending illegal wars and…on and on. In Brigitta’s case, it is doubly immoral as she claims to care about Wikileaks as an entity. How convenient-another disgruntled_____ same as the others…I am seeing a pattern here, getting ppl who can claim some kind of relationship with them, in this case she interviews with a right wing tabloid about how she’s “not sure” about “the facts” but anyway, we’ve gotta “support rape victims,” JA should step down because that will really help WL’s image and esp JA’s NOT and…well you see…
@SPhoenix, The comments by Jonsdottir are still on her Facebook page. I don’t see any scandal or strange behaviour there. I just think she’s expressed an opinion that’s been blown-up. Aren’t supporters of WikiLeaks allowed to express their opinion about Assange?
@Erik, I’m sure you can also find studies out there that prove smoking is still good for you. Show me some credible studies showing that women earn more than men in Sweden and I’ll believe you. Until then, I believe what everyone else knows – that women worldwide (including Sweden amazingly) earn less than men on average.
What I see are a lot of shrills coming out of the woodwork and making as much damaging publicity as possible about what she wrote. She should do the right thing and provide either a retraction to what is being published or she should do some kind of damage control. She isn’t. That says enough for me.
Obviously people don’t realise that “the man” is everywhere, in many forms. The tentacles are very long and have a surprisingly far reach.
admin:
“Erik, I’m sure you can also find studies out there that prove smoking is still good for you.”
Actually NO you cant and before you make dumb claims beware the person in front of you actually knowing not only the subject but also the entire method. The only thing you possibly COULD prove is that although smoking seems bad for you empirically, you cant do a causal claim on basis of correlation observation alone
That is true!
Thus you would still have to disprove alternative thesis explaing the correlation HOWEVER that is exactly what regarding smoking have been done already. Thus if you wanna claim otherwise, you must do so with an alternative explanation that has not yet been countered. And since every possible explanation has already been countered a 100 times this of course would be IMPOSSIBLE for you.
“Show me some credible studies showing that women earn more than men in Sweden and I’ll believe you.”
You are simply missing the POINT! Women earn less than men in total for the same reason man 1 earns less than man 2. Cause the high-earning jobs are
TIME-CONSUMING
HIGH-RISK (Low security)
BORING
LESS FULLFILLING
etc…
Also women are obsessed over marrying UP…. Men are not. Since a male CEO is 1000% more likely than a female CEO to marry a dishwasher. The female CEO:s feel they cant even have children.
They are angry over the male CEO:s having “it all” although off course male CEO:s are no more likely to marry up than women are.
So basically, not only do you say things that are not logical and completely false. You also pretend to know the subject while not even having BASIC KNOWLEDGE.
“Until then, I believe what everyone else knows – that women worldwide (including Sweden amazingly) earn less than men on average.”
Actually no!
Everyone else may BELIEVE that (the same way they believe whatever is told in Church)
But they dont KNOW anything.
They seem to not even know HOW knowing is achieved.
7th September Update: Assange fires his celebrity lawyer Leif Sibersky possibly partly because “not involved and very difficult to contact.”
Story in Swedish here: http://bit.ly/aEJU1n
Bad English translation here:
New lawyer ? Good idea.
Off course he had to switch Lawyer. Silbersky also had the “Helicopter Robbers” as clients. Clearly he could not give 100% to the assange case
It seems to me that Birgitta Jonsdottir is a voice of sanity. She’s looking out for Wikileaks, not JA. That’s to be commended from an organizational perspective. She also happens to be right. It would be good for Wikileaks to use another main spokesperson while the case is ongoing.
Not, that situation isn’t fair to JA. But I’m sure (well, I hope) he realizes that defending a rape charge while trying to discuss issues likes war crimes in Afghanistan wouldn’t work.
To quote Birgitta from Facebook:
“julian has my support as editor in chief for wikileaks but most people who speak the loudest about all of this forget that wikieaks is an organization with many people who work behind the scenes putting their lives on the line – wikileaks i…s not just Julian – i find what wikileaks stands for more important then one person – what julian has done in the past has my full respect …
but just think about the fact what this case has done to the dialogue about the content of wikileaks – no one is talking about anything except the soap opera around the founder – that is what the people who want to shut down wikileaks wants. those who have made the mistake of glorifying other human beings and made them into demigods need to question themselves why they do such things again and again – why not try to develop these elements people admire in others within self.”
What Birgitta is effectively saying, is that anyone who is accused of even the most ridiculous ‘crime’ and slandered by the jackal media, should instantly disappear in voice and action. Which is ridiculous on so many levels, I won’t even outline them here. Except to quote Daniel Assange re. his own brush with the media “… if you find yourself needing to self-censor purely out of fear of what conservative tabloids might make of your words, then the war for freedom of expression is already lost.”
For those that read the June 7 New Yorker profile on Wikileaks, Birgitta came across as an ambitious, attention seeking woman who very plausibly had the same relationship with Assange as Arden. Of course we need the leap of faith that that was in any way an accurate portrayal, but if it was, it is sort of an easy jump to project that maybe Assange is attracted to (or attracts) a certain profile of woman, who might be compared to a Courtenay Love / Nancy Spungen stalker type, not in love with him so much as wanting to BE him or destroy him.
In any case, I do not think anyone can align Birgitta’s comments as being those of a member of or a supporter of Wikileaks. When asked who she thought was behind the scandal originally, she replied “Hubris”. At this point she looks far more like a person jealous of Assange, romantically or professionally, than anyone to be considered a serious member of Wikileaks. A serious member of Cryptome perhaps. Or Gawker.
I hate to link to cryptome but ….
http://cryptome.org/0002/wikileaks-clarify.htm
- She wants a more horizontal power structure.
- She wants dull spokesperson with no issues.
- She considers herself a “volunteer”
- She does not know to “wikileaks insiders are” — meaning what? She doesn’t know the anonymous leakers to the media or she doesn’t know who is on the decision making proverbial “board”
She was very important in getting the Collateral Murder video to press and of course the IMMI … what her ongoing involvement is and has been I do not know.
She may well be the type of person happy to give her opinion on just about anything, unable to resist an open mike / other audience. My reaction has been disbelief that she would possibly be a naive as she sounds … you can never tell.
Regardless of who acts as spokesperson, the Threat Assessment roll out will need both “extreme” knowledge of what they contain and the results of the press collaboration and a very firm hand on managing Q&A to keep the focus on the materials.
Birgitta Jonsdottir is an idiot!
The simple fact is that Wikileaks is made up by people, if you write them off one at the time like this there will soon be no wikileaks.
Susan,
I think Bragitta Jonsdottir was interested in her own career. If she really cared about Assange and Wikileak’s goal, she would have organized activists in Sweden and protested in front of the courts to demand fair justice to Assange.
Is she in the same gang as those women in the majority left?
Let her first take care of Assange to prove her point that she was the spokesperson for JA from Iceland. After the release, she came on Alex Jones Radio Show and stated that “from today, I am not JA’s spokesperson. I have got threats and so I may not be the spokesperson.” She was only interested in the stealing of bank funds from Iceland. Her propaganda to use Wikileak might or might not have worked. The true colors show during the times of storms or in the fiery furnace.
Wikileak cannot have a more horizontal structure openly as many people withhold their names while promoting their stories. It is good for one man, Assange to take the brunt or the blame. He has chosen himself to take that role as he might have a deep faith that he can win this cause.
Her quote: You need a dull person. Does she consider her to be a dull person while she was appearing on the tv? If she really wants to see the outcome of freedom of speech for all the countries, then her role as a volunteer is an vital one. The power struggle should not be the end goal. The role of a servant is far superior than the master!
Wikileak need someone who is confident to reach across the consensus in all countries and is brave to articulate the message!
Susan,
If Assange and you guys would like me to be the mouth piece for Wikileak, I can be of service! I just thought of this while writing my above comment. Pray about it! I am bold and beautiful. I have the power and am not afraid!
I know it sounds funny, but hey, I am available to break the rock into pieces or break it asunder by my words.
Georgie BC,
Yup! You said it! If you give an inch to a woman, she will take the entire ruler. We witnessed that from the reading in Genesis:1 with Eve trying to outsmart God when he said “do not go near the forbidden tree or fruit.” Her disobedience and her pride cost the humanity thereof.
I think Bragita became jealous of Assange parting his emotions to other women and so she is not the favorite one. She has fallen from the heights. As long as Assange is having that kind of relationship with her, then she would be meeting Wikileak goal. It was self-serving. Assange needs someone that is dedicated without being too personal physically.
Admin,
Thank you for translating! Good job, Assange! Don’t waste your time with these attorneys. They are all crooks in my book. I have had one already who has gulped my funds and does not want to give. I am running out of my patience!
These attorneys work for us and we pay them. They need to abide by the contract and not divert the case and steal or distort.
“Birgitta came across as an ambitious, attention seeking woman who very plausibly had the same relationship with Assange as Arden.”
For crying out loud people, is anything *not* related to out of control women who want to rip power from the hands of ever so much more rational men? I feel like Susan and I are the only two people reading this who don’t believe women are irrational, power-obsessed, sexual predators.
Listen, like I said, it’s not fair. It’s not fair the JA gets slapped publicly with charges that appear questionable at best. It’s not fair that the U.S. DoD and media will use them against him, even after the case is settled. It’s not fair, wah, wah, *shakes fist*. But it is reality.
How can you *not* align Birgitta’s comments with being a supporter of Wikileaks? The point of her posts is to put Wikileaks first, above and beyond JA. If you read her FB comments it’s clear that she doesn’t think JA raped anyone, but that the mission of Wikileaks, for her, comes first over defending JA. AS IT SHOULD. Wikileaks must be defended, least we lose an effective tool against the criminals in power.
In the end, in this less than perfect world, what is more important: Julian or Wikileaks? Realistically, Julian seems to have a real good case that nothing wrong happened here. He should be able to prove that in court. That means we’ll likely all get what we want: a Wikileaks with an active Julian Assange. But lets say, for whatever fucked up reasons, that doesn’t happen. We wouldn’t want it to bring down WL as well. That’s what Birgitta’s comments are aimed at making sure doesn’t happen.
Erik, your points are so predictable as to be laughable. Did a woman do something you don’t like? Then, by God, she must be a stupid, raving feminist. Nothing Birgitta said suggests she is “writing off” JA, just that he should step aside as spoke-person during the case. It’s a perfectly reasonable suggestion. One can both make sure Wikileaks can continue, and help a friend at the same time. But JA may not get everything he wants in the process. Once again, life isn’t fair.
Siboni, I get the feeling you aren’t American, so let me warn you as someone exposed to his crazy conspiracy theory antics for years (I grew up in the Western U.S.): Alex Jones is either insane, or a phony out for money. He creates new conspiracies at an amazing rate. He’s a 9/11 truther, believes global warming is a hoax, thinks vaccinations are designed to sterilize children, and says FEMA (the American emergency agency) is preparing to put everyone in camps to kill them. He’s loco, and the last friend Wikileaks need.
@Pugget Please don’t take my heavily qualified statements out of context, or accuse me of being anti-woman. I am a woman, and am an ardent supporter of womanhood in general. I don’t see why that means I can’t think that this particular woman does not seem to be acting from the purest of motives.
If all she wanted was to change Wikileaks, why did she not keep that discussion internal? Why did she go to a rag that could be absolutely counted on to create a sensationalist anti-Assange brouhaha? The result of her actions has hardly been to put the focus back on Wikileaks, she just created a new one day sensation starring herself, as anyone could have predicted.
And sorry, a Wikileaks with a boring frontman is called Cryptome. And even if Assange was expendable, the idea that every protester should step down as soon as they are accused of anything, is mind blowing.
Pugget,
I am not sure if you are a woman or not. We do not live in the ancient times, but today, women can be irrational, power obsessed, and sex-predators. If you read Lombroso’s theory on the atavistic women of the past, they were criminals. They had certain characteristics that were noteworthy. You must be naive to think that is not possible. It might be low in numbers as compared to men.
I do believe that Bragita JonsDottir was wrong in suggesting Assange to side-step. This message coming out of her mouth can have a negative impact on Assange. At this point, Bragita should have supported him regardless of the smear. We do not have the full version from Assange and therefore, to counter the allegations, one must solidify the base from within despite what the storms are. A general in the army does not retrieve when he hears false rumors of defeat or a big giant obstructing the pathway or whatever is causing the victory.
I have heard Alex Jones recently. Since the new world order has been mandated by the leaders, he is proclaiming the news from someone that is working in the Pentagon or the Senators. I take it as he is warning of future disasters and only time will reveal about his predictions or theories. He has a powerful lobby of educators, scientists, and politicians that support him. Mind you, Nazi Germany started all their eugenics and deviant criminalization and so Alex and Company are keeping an eye open that history should not repeat again in the U.S. I take him as a watchman who sounds extreme. Even in the olden days, prophets were scorned as they were constantly trying to warn people of imminent doom. They even tried to kill them and bury them. Time did prove that they were right!
So I keep an open mind to AJ without using the term that he is crazy.
Foreign Minister Carl Bildt is on record as saying that the U.S. has not contacted Sweden about WikiLeaks and that “any complaint against the site would be a matter for Swedish judicial authorities.” http://www.wwltv.com/news/world/101005714.html
Given the recent crackdown by the Swedish justice department against file sharing sites, http://www.thelocal.se/28826/20100907/ such as Pirate Bay, I am curious how long the Swedish Justice Department will be able to hold out against the legions of lawyers, lobbyists, and diplomats – to say nothing of the tsunami of money – that the United States will undoubtedly inundate the country with in an effort to stop Assange and company from continuing to release embarrassing documents?
I also worry that JA’s personal troubles with the Swedish justice department could be a harbinger of woe for Wikileaks in the future.
*I have blogged (i.e. expressed my opinion) about this question on my personal site http://www.certaindoubt.net but as an outsider I know next to nothing about Swedish politics. I would love to hear a response from someone who knows the country better.
http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/wikileaks-founder-to-stay-insider-20100907-14zdi.html
what i said! And soboni -Wau Holland who handles WL donations, has accounted for WL finances, check it out, don’t believe jealous Cryptome.
vincible l,
I checked your blog. You have written well about various topics. It is outrageous that U.S. is spending billions of dollars on controlling the Taliban. I am not sure who they are or whether they are created as bogeymen to control that region.
You are right that Swedish govt. can shift their position under duress by the U.S. demands. I do believe that JA was set up by these women and as you state the whistle-blower might have caused this upheaval for Assange to be be trapped.
This way he would dismantle the Wikileaks.
SPhoenix,
I checked your link. I am glad to hear that Wikileaks is going to stretch a bit rather than allow for rumours to be spread.
I don’t visit Cryptome, but somehow the link was posted here.
However, it is good to have transparency within the organization and not for outsiders to know the inner dealings. If the volunteers are not happy at Wikileaks, then the goal of the organization is not met fully. Some deserve recognition by monetary funds. I hope Assange can provide that to the best of his ability.
I realize that disgruntled and distractors will always interpret the message with full of gossips and innuendos and can create havoc for the readers.
Good luck!
@Erik, Smoking is bad for your health – I don’t think anyone would deny that nowadays other than those who also don’t believe the climate is changing. Women also earn less than men on average and that’s a fact not something I just “believe” like some “brainwashed Church goer” Don’t pull that Alex Jones “wake-up sheeple” garbage on me. There are plenty of studies that confirm it’s a fact as this New York Times article shows:
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/16/the-gender-pay-gap-persists-especially-for-the-rich/
The YouTube link you’ve provided is a video by a man called Warren Farrell who claims that “women earn less than men because they’re not prepared to do the same amount of work.” I urge you to walk up to the next woman you see and say that to their face and see what kind of reaction you get. And by the way, if you think that CEO’s get paid well because their jobs are “time-consuming and high-risk” try telling that to the Chilean miners trapped below the earth who earn a fraction of what their CEO does, plus the millions of working class people across the world who work themselves to the bone every day off for very little in return. And even if women do generally prioritize their home life and family over work does that mean they should be penalized economically? It does in a state-capitalist system that only values a workers economic output and not their wider role in raising a family in society but it shouldn’t (something incidentally Sweden has probably acknowledged more than any other country with it’s generous family subsidies and maternity leave). I don’t disagree that there are certain physical jobs that women simply can’t do as well as men for biological reasons and that there are feminist “extremists” (as well as male “extremists”) that go too far. But you seem to blame the general disparity between men and women on women – it’s got nothing to do with that – sexism, racism, nazism etc is simply a result of the state-capitalist system we live in. Try focusing your obvious anger and frustration on that instead of the “feiminazis”. But we’re getting wildly off-topic here.
@GeorgieBC, I agree you with you to a certain extent. There was no need for Birgitta to make those comments although her point – that more people are talking about Assange and the sex scandal than WikiLeaks very important work and maybe it would be better for him to stand down – is evident in this very thread of comments you’re reading. Whether she’s an attention seeker and had a relationship herself with Assange, I wouldn’t like to say. I tend to agree with Pugget on this that anything that makes people focus on WikiLeaks again rather than Assange would be a good thing.
@Phoenix, Thanks for the link. I especially like the new phrase that WikiLeaks used: “Transparency Journalism”. We could do with much more of that in this case!
@Siboni, You say: “But today, women can be irrational, power obsessed, and sex-predators”. Erm, Dick Cheney, Tony Blair, Donald Rumsfeld, Bill Clinton, George Bush etc etc etc etc.
admin:
“Smoking is bad for your health – I don’t think anyone would deny that nowadays other than those who also don’t believe the climate is changing.”
Nobody dont believe climate is changing thats a straw man. Not everyone agree with WHY that is happening though.
“Women also earn less than men on average and that’s a fact not something I just “believe” like some “brainwashed Church goer””
If Man A live like a man and Man B live like a woman, Man B will earn less than Man A. However he would also be married to a woman who earn more than him, live longer, have a more fulfilling job and have more time to spend with this children. The problem however is that when a woman earns more she is NOT more likely to marry down, she is more likely to marry up.
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/16/the-gender-pay-gap-persists-especially-for-the-rich/
YOUR article say the exact same thing as this article. At the TOP and BOTTOM men dominate.
“More boys scored extremely well — or extremely poorly — than girls, who were more likely to earn scores closer to the average for all students. The study found that boys are consistently more variable than girls, in every grade and in every state studied”
http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2008/07/larry-summers-vindicated-by-new-study.html
“The YouTube link you’ve provided is a video by a man called Warren Farrell who claims that “women earn less than men because they’re not prepared to do the same amount of work.”
And who actually PROVES it!
“I urge you to walk up to the next woman you see and say that to their face and see what kind of reaction you get. ”
Her emotional reaction is not scientifically based, so it doesnt tell anything about the subject.
admin:
And by the way, if you think that CEO’s get paid well because their jobs are “time-consuming and high-risk”
I dont think – I KNOW. It is scientifically proven that male CEO:s choose positions with higher risk and pay, female CEO:s choose positions with lesser risk and pay – often jobs in goverment service.
“try telling that to the Chilean miners trapped below the earth who earn a fraction of what their CEO does”
Now you are just being silly!. The comparison was between men and women, how many women are among the trapped miners?
http://genusnytt.wordpress.com/2010/08/26/gor-genusanalys-pa-denna-bild-schyman/
“plus the millions of working class people across the world who work themselves to the bone every day off for very little in return.”
Again you are being silly, we discussed the difference between men and women. Not the difference between classes.
“And even if women do generally prioritize their home life and family over work does that mean they should be penalized economically?”
1. Since when is not getting paid for a job you DONT DO a penalty? I dont win olympics in my sport, am I penalized when I dont get a trophy for not even participating?
2. If I prioritize fun, I get less money do I have the right to combine fun and money or is that right RESERVED for women?
3. Women do NOT prioritize family – MEN DO, in fact the more money women have to raise family the less LIKELY they are to actually do it – The more money MEN have to raise a family the more likely they are to do it.
And you people seem to not even understand why. Regarding women you are clueless cause you try to understand by asking them and women themselves dont know the answer. However you are afraid of using science cause (as your example above show) you are afraid women wont LIKE the answers.
And for some weird reason you think that actually matters.
“It does in a state-capitalist system that only values a workers economic output and not their wider role in raising a family in society but it shouldn’t”
Its funny how you actually convince yourself women with no children whatsoever have a wider role in raising a family. The POORER women are those who raise family. The MORE women get the less children they get. (opposite for men)
And you people cant solve that equation so instead you pretend its not even there.
“(something incidentally Sweden has probably acknowledged more than any other country with it’s generous family subsidies and maternity leave).”
And paid for by huge amounts of immigration from CONSERVATIVE-RELIGIOUS-AUTHORITARIAN countries resulting in huge attacks on the liberal/democratic values that are the foundation for the entire western world.
(But I guess you dont know this either)
Women from THOSE countries then outpeform The Western Women family wise 3:1 and more…
“I don’t disagree that there are certain physical jobs that women simply can’t do as well as men for biological reasons”
Its not a matter about the job itself, its a matter of mens higher VARIABLE…. men dominate TOP and BOTTOM… any study just going for the top thus give a false impression.
Women cant compete with men at the top cause
a) Women have lots of other things they wanna spend time at, men can focus on work alone.
b) Testosterone gives some few an edge on other men – however they also reach a degree NO WOMAN can reach.
“and that there are feminist “extremists” (as well as male “extremists”) that go too far.”
Male extremist? Excuse me but female and feminist is not the same thing. The 9-11 hijackers were males and extremists but they sure as heck were not a feminist opposites
“But you seem to blame the general disparity between men and women on women”
You dont get it do you?
I blame neither men, nor women! The BLAME-thing is your PC- thing – not mine. The only blame women ever get from me is when I ANSWER QUESTIONS U ASK WHERE U ASSUME MEN ARE TO BLAME. And I show if anyone are to blame (which I do not think) it would in that case (which I am against) be WOMEN.
Again, I am completely against this But IF I AM FORCED I follow the facts.
“I don’t want to be on anybody’s side. Gender warriors please go home.” Prof Roy Baumeister
Blaming any person or group for the effect of evolution is downright IDIOTIC!
Claiming evolution has nothing to do with the disparity between men and women is even more idiotic.
“it’s got nothing to do with that – sexism, racism, nazism etc is simply a result of the state-capitalist system we live in.”
Well, thats what ROUSSAU thought but evidence today show he was wrong. He off course never knew since he died before it could be proven.
But you should know better.
“Try focusing your obvious anger and frustration on that instead of the “feiminazis”. But we’re getting wildly off-topic here.”
Focusing on what? ROUSSAUS insane fantasy?
Thats hardly something I can focus on.
I focus on facts. So how about you try give me some facts I can focus on instead of just political garbage that has again and again been proven false the entire 20ths century?
Read evolutionary psychology.
admin:
Ohh btw… Does your models of “disparity” between women and men even take into account the proven HUGE AMOUNTS of money men spend on their women?
Or maybe you think first women should keep 100% of what they earn
Then they should also take as much as they can of what men earn?
What do you have to reply on this simple fact?
Siboni-
I don’t see why my sex matters, but I happen to be male. I’m not going to argue about AJ with you here, but I’d suggest you go and try and find his past claims and see how well they matched up with reality.
GeorgieBC-
Sorry if you feel I took you out of context. I felt your statement was a rather direct accusation, but I’m happy to hear you’re implying otherwise now. I generally agree with what you’re saying: organizations who eat their own eventually die. I didn’t mean to suggest that WLs throw JA to the dogs and leave him with no resources. Rather, WLs needs to firewall themselves enough such that, no matter what happen with JA, they can continue in their mission.
I think Birgitta’s comments must be read in that light, unless there is other information I am unaware of. Your point that such a discussion should be held behind close doors is debatable, but fair in light of the charges. At the same time, making such statements is part of the process of starting to separate WLs from JA in the mind of the public, and an important step in ensuring their survival. I’m not sure I know how to balance those two goals.
Pugget:
“Rather, WLs needs to firewall themselves enough such that, no matter what happen with JA, they can continue in their mission.”
Thats impossible, a pure Utopian idea with no foundation in reality. It would seem you dont understand that even if such an organisation would be called WikiLeaks it would no longer be WikiLeaks.
WikiLeaks stand for being UNAFRAID and CONFRONTING things.
Jonasdottirs suggestion stand for being SCARED and RUNNING AWAY
Simply put, if WikiLeaks run away like scared little kids, then they are not WikiLeaks regardless what they call themselves.
“I think Birgitta’s comments must be read in that light”
No, since that is impossible nobody needs to read her comments that way. The only way her comments can be read is that for her womens issues utopia are more important than wikileaks issues.
Thats simple fact.
“At the same time, making such statements is part of the process of starting to separate WLs from JA in the mind of the public, and an important step in ensuring their survival.”
Nope, thats not true!
“I’m not sure I know how to balance those two goals.”
Off course not, its impossible! I would not expect you to be able to discuss or explain how to do the impossible.
Clearly Jonasdottir care as much about WikiLeaks as Anna Ardin did…. She is just another poser.
8th September Update: Assange claims US Government are pressuring Sweden: It’s the headline story on Aftonbladet’s website this afternoon.
Full story here: http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article7748292.ab
Bad English translation here. Main points are:
- Assange claims he is the victim of personal vendettas from the girls and “career opportunism” from the prosecutors
- WikiLeaks had information in mid August that Sweden had been informed by US secret services not to become a “safe haven” for WikiLeaks
- Swedish Foreign Ministry reject Assange’s claims
@Erik, I’ll reply to all of your points soon.
It is very difficult to have a conversation about the specifics of this case involving one (Aussie!) man and many women who appear to be against him when everyone keeps biting on the sexist (and sometimes racist, Birgitta) angles.
To address the situation re. spokesperson:
1) I expect we can all agree that Wikileaks needs a lot more spokespeople and visible supporters, but Birgitta has just provided a pretty powerful argument against that happening. The spokesperson would have to actually make statements the group agreed to, not advertise herself as a ‘Wikileaks insider’ then go off on her own tangents.
2) The point of Wikileaks is bravery. The image of one strong and brilliant individual thumbing his nose at virtually everyone in the name of the truth is, as we have seen, extremely powerful. What on earth does this have to do with him running away as soon as someone yells ‘Boo!’?
3) Much as some ‘Wikileaks insiders’ would like to believe that all supporters are equal, that is BS. The US civil rights movement was huge and existed both before and after Martin Luther King, and had many other prominent supporters, but the image of him as a civil rights icon is extremely powerful. Assange has captured the public’s imagination in a way that neither John Young or Birgitta ever could. Powerful charisma is not nearly as common as they would like you to believe, and Wikileaks’ enemies certainly know that.
The civil rights movement had other leaders, tho’. If Birgitta wants to be a leader in the fight for freedom of information, there is plenty of room. But she doesn’t appear to want to create her own role, she appears to want to BECOME Assange, much like a freaky groupie IMHO. And John Young only appears to know how to hate, where he could have stood up and been a powerful voice for freedom in the US, he has turned himself into a spiteful, gossipy, bitter joke.
Hard to grow an organization with members like these, and a solid argument for JA to maintain control.
Wouldn’t it be nice if a leaked document confirming the Pentagon’s persuasion of Sweden was true?
I doubt they would use normal contact systems though, now they know the world is so aware of what criminals and thugs run things there.
We need some good hackers. I hope there’s enough support for JA that this farce is seen exactly for what it is.
Erik-
It’s utopian to comprise in a non-ideal situation such that the expected outcome isn’t catastrophic? To me, that is the definition of reason. No one has suggested hanging JA out to dry. I’m not going to type that line again, as I’ve already typed it in two other messages, and you have failed to read it or absorb it. Not Birgitta, not me, not “wikileaks insider.” It’s clear Wikileaks supports their founder. It’s also clear they don’t want this case to stop all thier other work, which is exactly what it does as long as JA is the spokesperson. No media organization is going to follow a story about wikileaks or anything they release as long as JA is under suspicion for rape. Do you understand that? Once again, and I wont type this again either: life IS NOT FAIR. The situation IS NOT FAIR. Expecting the media or the public to act like JA is being unfairly prosecuted is naive, and I’m sure WLs realizes that. The world will not bend to your will just because you want it to.
As for the rest of your message, I have no response. Your determination of all women who say things you don’t like as a “feminist utopians” or “feminazis” speaks for itself. You haven’t engaged with the arguments I’ve made as to why her statement is perfectly reasonable, although it’s public nature may have been the wrong choice. Instead you’ve just said “you wrong, me right.” Whatever.
I agree very much with GeorgieBC’s reading of the situation. I also am a woman and a feminist, but that doesn’t mean I have to be automatically parti pris, psychologically obtuse; quite the reverse. If anyone, male or female, had spoken in public of me the way Birgitta has been speaking of JA and WL, I would find it impossible to consider her/him a colleague any longer.
Birgitta’s remarks lead me to think that, in spite of her access, she doesn’t quite get or doesn’t like the necessary structure of WL. Her kind of politics makes sense for a parliamentarian who wants to be progressive, but WL is not a government or a political party. Calling for “transparency” in a private citizen’s organization that is trying to open up governments, as if such an organization was a government, is a false equivalence. The default for citizens in a democracy is liberty, which entails privacy; the default for the state is transparency; and WL runs on that understanding — obviously, against a lot of powerful opposition.
I think it is absolutely the wrong time to criticize JA’s role as spokesperson. Surely, that was the point of this farcical smear, to take him out. Why would any sensible person support that?
One quibble: While John Young may be bitter, he is also fastidious and fair and truthful, I think.
@skdadl My disappointment (bitterness?) against John Young is a result of my former, or perhaps still, respect for the man. And as you state, I am sure he believes what he is saying. And there is definitely room for an opposing point of view, and his opinions on the influence of money in an organization exactly coincide with my own. So I take back my statement re. him, and thank you for bringing me up on that.
I remain wishing that he would carry on in the way that he believes is right and stop being sucked into Wikileaks drama. I think my point is for each of us that believe in your statement above to work towards it in the way we deem proper with the minimum of sabotaging of each other.
My twitter bio is virtually identical to your statement. : The default for public organizations and government = total transparency. The default for private citizens = total privacy. What happened, Democracy?
There’s nothing particularly benign about hinting broadly — full deniability of course — inquiring minds want to know – wink – that Wikileaks enjoys generous funding from George Soros / Open Society Foundation (It does not) which eventually provided a response that it in fact does not …
The appearance of a deep pockets donor can discourage the small-change individual donor who believes that the financial foundation is secure.
The appearance of a deep pockets often described as “leftist” donor can support claims wrt Wikileaks bias.
Further, for those playing at home, Soros’ alleged funding of various eastern European “color revolutions” could/would/might be problematic to someone like me.
The same problems might well apply to any large donor.
Cryptome/Youngs concerns/pronouncements may be valid and/or correct and/or worthy of consideration — the nasty smell however is hard to ignore.
Pugget:
“It’s utopian to comprise in a non-ideal situation such that the expected outcome isn’t catastrophic?”
What the heck are you talking about? I am talking about THIS situation, you seem to aim for an all-powerful theory to use on every situation to avoid actually having to do any analysis.
“To me, that is the definition of reason.”
What is? In this actual situation Jonasdottir suggest something that is compelety impossible. In what way did ever suggesting the impossible become “reason”?
“No one has suggested hanging JA out to dry. I’m not going to type that line again, as I’ve already typed it in two other messages, and you have failed to read it or absorb it. Not Birgitta, not me, not “wikileaks insider.”
What those people have NOT suggested or not said is as important as all the destinations my BUS do NOT have, The important part is what they DO suggest. (and the important part on the bus is the destinations it actually has)
What they did not suggest do NOT answer what they did suggest. Not the same thing.
“It’s clear Wikileaks supports their founder.”
Ohhh really? In what way?
“It’s also clear they don’t want this case to stop all thier other work, which is exactly what it does as long as JA is the spokesperson.”
In what way does JA being spokesperson (after founding the dang thing) hinders them working with the remaning 15000 documents? I can see no correlation whatsoever between those claims
What in fact I do see are some persons who wants WL to be different than it is and now takes the chance using the opportunity the rape-charge offers for a power struggle.
As the act itself shows cowardice, clearly these people are not part of the vision of WL Assange created. They are more like the European Union, looking for the softest way to be defeated while throwing excuses.
“No media organization is going to follow a story about wikileaks or anything they release as long as JA is under suspicion for rape.”
Bullshit! In fact anything WL does now would get maximum coverage cause anything Assange does will get media exposure. The idea you must separate those two is made up fantasy. Complete lie.
“Do you understand that? Once again, and I wont type this again either: life IS NOT FAIR.”
1. Thats a general term – again has nothing to do with this situation
2. Nothing about that is new, people already know life is not fair. Thats not what this is about.
“The situation IS NOT FAIR. Expecting the media or the public to act like JA is being unfairly prosecuted is naive, and I’m sure WLs realizes that.”
With the same logic, WL should cease operating completely cause expecting media or public to act like the war in Afghanistan is being unfairly prosecuted is even MORE naive
Clearly you people live in the fantasy that those two can be separated and the RAPE-charge seem as the “HARDER” of the two. Meaning you should drop the hard job (rape-accusation) and go for the EASY TASK of attacking the war in afghanistan.
In reality if you cant even handle a little rape-accusation then I suggest you give up all thoughts on being able to argue your point in the Afghanistan-war.
If you cant handle the EASY task, forget about the much harder, if you cant handle heat – get out of the kitchen!
“The world will not bend to your will just because you want it to.”
??? You are the one in fantasyland. You think people can in THEORY separate the rape-charge and the afg-war-info just cause you WISH to separate cause… well….
You dont have the guts to go up against the feminist-movement. But they are nothing compared to Pentagon so really if you cant even handle feminism . dont even TRY handle CIA. You are just deluding yourself.
If you are afraid of the lesser foe, the larger foe will petrify you.
“As for the rest of your message, I have no response.”
Thats no news, you never had any response earlier why would that change?
“Your determination of all women who say things you don’t like as a “feminist utopians” or “feminazis” speaks for itself.”
Actually both those claims by you are LIES!
1. I havent used the word feminazi at all
2. I have in fact used Thomas Sowells expression UTOPIANS (followers of unrestricted vision) however Sowelll is a recognized thinker and academic, I doubt you are.
“You haven’t engaged with the arguments I’ve made as to why her statement is perfectly reasonable”
Yes I have, I explained regardless what fantasy theory you have, if you separate WL from Assange the result is you no longer have WL… just a completely different weak organisation calling itself WL in an effort to cash in on the work of Assange.
Now in 2) above, GeorgieBC explains the same thing.
“although it’s public nature may have been the wrong choice. Instead you’ve just said “you wrong, me right.” Whatever.”
No I did not just say that. I say if you replace FEARLESS and CONFRONTING
with FEARFUL and COWARDLY
Well then even if you call it WL, it wont fool anyone..
You cant handle a simple rape charge but you think you can handle whatever Pentagon throws at you in criticism of the war-documents?
GET REAL!
Learn to handle the small problem before you claim ability to handle the large problem.
admin:
“@Erik, I’ll reply to all of your points soon.”
That sounds good, in the winged words of Arnold Schwarzenegger: I´ll be back
@erik
That really long post made no sense at all. It just makes you sound like you are foaming at the mouth about something…just not sure what it is exactly. Women, maybe?
September 8th 22:00 Update:
Aftonbladet newspaper reveals someone within the police or public prosecution illegally leaked the “rape” police report to them on 28 August.
Someone within either the police or public prosecution illegally leaked the women’s “rape” report they gave to the police to Aftonbladet newspaper. A possible attempt by someone sympathetic to Assange to try and reveal the truth behind the “rape” or someone trying to damage the case in someway? I’m inclined to think the former – if they were an enemy of Assange, surely they would leak it to Expressen rather than Aftonbladet who Assange himself writes for. Authorities are investigating who it was and they may be prosecuted.
Full story here: http://www.aftonbladet.se/senastenytt/ttnyheter/inrikes/article7749772.ab
Bad translation here:
Well, I will be mildly encouraged that “they” believed that leaking this report would be “good” for Assange …
unless the only ‘goodness” is that of showing showing how leak-prone the prosecutor’s office is.
That Swedish pride must be just about runneth over by now …
As a close friend of Julian, I can say he has not had sex with anyone the last months, so that alone should make one think.
If anything related to the two girls happened, my guess is that his refusal to kiss or have sex with either one of them, their problems with being rejected by him, has created all this. Nothing more nothing less.
And by the way, he’s not lying:
http://www.tv4play.se/aktualitet/nyhetsmorgon?videoId=1.1802312
@ Susan — The Swedish police and prosecutor’s office are looking curiouser and curiouser, aren’t they?
How can an investigation of a pretty minor allegation that involves only three people go on this long?
WL can go on having my widow’s mite, whether Soros is funding them or not. I’m just glad to see someone fighting the forces of neo-feudalism. (Btw, I’m a Susan too.)
You’re right Erik, you only implied they were something akin to feminazis. I apologize. With all the woman hating going on, I got confused who said what.
As for the rest of your comment, it made me smile.
Pugget:
Wrong again: I did not imply they were feminazi or anything CLOSE to feminazi. I have used three words to describe them
1. Radical feminists
2. Cultural Marxists
3. Utopians. (A term used by Thomas Sowell)
None of these have anything to do with the term feminazi or anything “akin” to it. Also all of these are clearly defined.
Anonymous:
“That really long post made no sense at all. It just makes you sound like you are foaming at the mouth about something…”
1. If you are gonna comment one of my posts, make sure to include something in your comment pointing out which one, your text is like a review of a movie where its not clear if the reviewer even watched the movie.
2. What things “sound like” is not even close to any argument whatsoever. You not being competent enough to understand what I write doesnt mean you get to interpret it as anything you wish.
@Erik
I was wrong to attack your post on this thread. Out of respect to Nicholas Mead who wrote a thoughtful, intelligent analysis of the situation and who has done a great job moderating the comments here, I won’t respond now. I will instead respond on your blog.
Anonymous:
You did not attack my post, you did not write a single word even telling what post you are referring to. As far as I know, you did not read a word I wrote in any of the 2 languages I used.
These continuing claims are absurd. They really have comedic value. When I debunk an error (straw man), I get replied “you are right, sorry!” followed by another even bigger error (straw man).
Now, try make a REAL answer, not more excuses for the lack thereof.
admin, it seems my comments were deleted.
Erik,
I read your various comments and I must admit that you are level headed. One cannot explain in detail on the blog. The restriction creates a misunderstanding.
Pugget,
I asked you for gender identification, because then I am able to write accordingly with sensitiveness, lol. I am a female and I sometimes go outside the box to evaluate some of the issues. About Alex Jones, I need to stop discussing here as this is all about WL and Assange. I can only add that the climate is changing drastically. The new NASA tricks in the space and the cloud seeds implanting has also caused changes in the weather causing storms, humidity, etc. I am not a scientist, but would like to keep an open mind.
Admin,
You are bringing in too few celebrities or politicians who are males and had deviancy. I can say that some of the individuals you have mentioned above are just actors who are doing the bidding of their secret masters. I am discussing about overall female attitudes and deviancy within the criminal justice system crime index. Some may be isolated cases. I know one thing for sure, most women are irrational due to their emotions rather than being logical minded. Second, they are obsessive and there are several cases to prove how they handle their obsession. Finally, the sex predation is normally done by women and also through manipulation on a man. Some women have trapped men by getting pregnant and created havoc later on. There are some women that have lost interest in their husbands and have pushed other women to flirt with him, so she can go hunting as a sex maniac elsewhere, lol. Men just grab the occasion if they can find, lol. Yes, there are cases where such predators have been criminalized that are exposed in the media. Not all predation is reported, but research survey might support this claim.
Just wondering what world everyone lives in when they write some of the remarks above about feminism and females. I’m wondering if a cultural nanny state is to blame? Three generations of social entitlements doled out, could have had the effect of softening not only the brain, but female leverage into believing half of this soft science speculation and institutionalised engineering.
LOL at the parochial (quite quaint and disturbing actually) assumptions about female empowerment requiring the force of a state legislated battle axe.
I’m going to go well off PC and assume that few here have traveled enough in the Real World to encounter the kind of women that still exists outside of this plastic concept that everyone is describing.
It must be cultural conditioning to blame here because there is nothing more scary, more formidable to man or beast, than a big mouthed big woman with a bad attitude.
These (apparently rare in Sweden
) entities can be found mostly where people are “of color”, where life is a bit more real and the struggle more grave than can ever be described by your statistics.
@Boadacia!,
There’s no evidence in this case but there is evidence that Sweden has been manipulated by US secret services before. Here’s the full report by the UNHCR and Amnesty International about how Sweden secretly allowed the US to perform “rendition” from Sweden on two Egyptians suspected of terrorism.
http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/publisher,AMNESTY,,SWE,45bc855a2,0.html
It just goes to prove that Sweden has laid down in the face of US power before and so it wouldn’t be a surprise if it happened again. I think it’s increasingly clear now – as Assange himself suspects – that this didn’t start out as a CIA plot against him – it was a classic tale of jilted lovers hell bent on revenge. However, the muddled way things are turning out in this case suggest that someone or some higher power is trying to pervert the course of justice and make Assange’s life hard:
@skdadl, Some interesting thoughts on Jonasdottir’s parliamentary idea of an organization and the “flat-hierarchy” of WikiLeaks that she perhaps hasn’t grasped. Think you may have a point there – everyone is pointing the finger as Assange like he is some kind of CEO. He’s not – he’s the founder and spokesperson and I very much doubt that WikiLeaks have to consult him whenever they want to publish something like some Editor in Chief.
@Erik, I can’t possibly reply to everything that you’ve written in the short time that I have but it seems to me that for the most part, you’re either being willfully ignorant about certain issues or just arguing with people for arguments sake. E.g. you quote Pugget as saying: “It’s clear WikiLeaks supports their founder” and you reply: “Ohhh really? In what way?”. WikiLeaks have stated their support on their website:
http://blog.wikileaks.org/2010/08/allegations-against-wikileaks-founder-and-spokesperson-julian-assange.html
Is that not good enough for you?
root@amsix, Thanks for sharing that insight. If you are genuinely a close friend of Assange and are telling the truth, then this makes the entire case even more scandalous. It implies that these are two extremely vindictive women who themselves, should be prosecuted for making false allegations and defamation. I have always found it hard to imagine Assange as some kind of sex crazed monster and it wouldn’t surprise me at all if nothing remotely sexual happened at all between him and the women as you say. I wonder why though when asked by Aftonbladet whether he’d had sex in Sweden in one of this first interviews with them, he didn’t just say “No” and end all speculation or at least say “not in the last few months”. Maybe he felt that even to divulge that was an invasion of his privacy or could compromise the case in some way.
Thanks for the interview link too. For those that can’t access TV4Play in Sweden, Assange is asked a few questions about the allegations. He denies anything remotely approaching rape has happened and when asked if sexual coercion may have taken place, he replies, “I don’t even know what the hell that means.” He also points out that he’s never once claimed the CIA was involved, affirms that he thinks he is the victim of a personal vendetta that powerful interests may have now “capitalized” on it. Most interestingly though, he reveals that to gain Swedish citizenship as an editor of WikiLeaks and therefore granted a publishing licence, he has to be considered a “person of good standing” by Swedish law. A rapist would not be considered a person of good standing and therefore their application would be rejected. Assange doesn’t say it is a conspiracy but simply points out that is the result of the allegations. It’s clear that until the case is resolved, he won’t be granted a resident permit and WikiLeaks won’t be granted a publishing license. If there is a plot, and the aim is to at least delay the next round of Afghanistan leaks, then it’s probably been achieved. However, I don’t see why WikiLeaks can’t just get someone else to apply for the license in their behalf instead.
@Anonymous, thanks for the kind comments and I appreciate you taking the debate with Erik to his blog. I’m not interested in getting into a slagging match with Erik about “Cultural Marxism” or extreme feminists on this blog. I’m interested in trying to help get to the bottom of what has happened in this case. While it’s clear that at least one of the women involved is what could be described as a “radical” feminist, focusing on women too much is missing the point here. Women can be jealous, men can be jealous and I’m a bit tired of this debate turning into a battle of the sexes – at least on this blog.
@Siboni, Your comments weren’t deleted (I very rarely delete any comments unless they’re personally offensive or completely off topic) – they were held in moderation which sometimes happens automatically for some reason. I approved it immediately and you should be able to see it now. As regards your comment, “most women are irrational due to their emotions rather than being logical minded” I think you’ll find most people find that a rather sexist claim and I’d appreciate it if you could move off the “women are to blame” in all this as I’ve just appealed for above. It’s simply crazy to continue claiming that this is all because of some kind of feminist conspiracy. BTW, I appreciate you dropping the Alex Jones stuff and focusing on this case. Thanks.
@tomi, As I’ve appealed for several times now, I’m trying to get this conversation off the topic of men v women and back onto the case of Assange v The Allegations. One point though – I don’t think you can blame Sweden’s welfare state for sexist attitudes – sexism exists everywhere and I actually think it’s probably less prevalent in Sweden than many other countries due to efforts by the state to encourage a certain amount of equality (try comparing a Spanish man’s attitude towards women with a Swedish man´s for example) but this entire Assange debate has attracted a lot of sexists comments from some Swede’s that I don’t think are representative of the Swedish male population as a whole.
admin:
“Erik, I can’t possibly reply to everything that you’ve written in the short time that I have”
1. Thats NOT TRUE, you can prioritize and reply to the important points. What you seem to have problem with is finding any FACTS on which the base your preferred opinions in an actual debate.
“but it seems to me that for the most part, you’re either being willfully ignorant”
2. Thats on you to prove with facts, these excuses for complete lack of facts are pathetic. Again, they have comedic value.
“about certain issues or just arguing with people for arguments sake.”
3. Also on you to prove, however this off course is impossible since you are referring to my state of mind – which obviously you neither know or realistically CAN know. Therefore – this was just bullshit.
“WikiLeaks have stated their support on their website:”
4. Yes and they would hardly be the first persons in the history to show the difference between STATED support and ACTUAL support.
“Is that not good enough for you?”
5. Exactly! Thats not good enough! In fact, thats nothing. They promise to do nothing. I personally know people who do more for Assange than that pathetic text.
“I’m not interested in getting into a slagging match with Erik about “Cultural Marxism””
6. Then why do you argue? You do not get your opinions accepted as “true” without even needing any evidence they are true.
“or extreme feminists on this blog.”
7. Again I have not discussed “Extreme feminists” (What the heck would the definition for them even be) I have discussed radical feminism. Radical and extreme are not remotely the same thing.
Extreme is a difference in degree
Radical is a difference in the opinion on western culture.
See the difference?
“While it’s clear that at least one of the women involved is what could be described as a “radical” feminist, focusing on women too much is missing the point here.”
Actually you are missing the point. The woman in question is specialised in using law as a tool for political agenda and she does think the personal SHOULD be considered politica.. She is a part of the sexual harassment-allegations crowd. Here is a book you can read:
Heterophobia: Sexual Harassment and the Future of Feminism (American Intellectual Culture)
“Women can be jealous, men can be jealous and I’m a bit tired of this debate turning into a battle of the sexes – at least on this blog.”
This is not about men/women… Daphne Patai IS a woman. And she does not consider these power-hungry looneys representants for her gender.
So why the heck should you?
Hi Admin, The deeper level of what I posted is that there is a fundemental fallacy in steriotyping the female gender by using this cultural (sexist in itself) projection of women being “delicate flowers”.
When cultural intellectualism starts to decay the natural selection process of survival of the fittest… I suggest required courses in studying the character of heroic women (or otherwise) who used their natural powers to its fullest capactiy or they could speak to their great grandmothers… about it.
admin (in response to Siboni):
“As regards your comment, “most women are irrational due to their emotions rather than being logical minded” I think you’ll find most people find that a rather sexist claim”
Well, you should stop obsessing with what most people think then….
Scientific truth is not a matter of voting.
“In logic, an argumentum ad populum (Latin: “appeal to the people”) is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or all people believe it; it alleges: “If many believe so, it is so.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
The opinions on “Most people” is the bully argument from high-school. Most people dont like your sweater, thats important for 14 year olds…
Again, these matters have comedic value only.
root@amsix,
I’m quite sure I’ve seen Assange admitting he had sex with one of the women (maybe the leaked police interview?)
Can anyone confirm?
@anonymous and root@amsix:
Hasn’t Assange as much as tacitly admitted that he had sex with at least one of the women by saying (more than once) that he’s never done anything that’s unconsensual?
The link is posted above, but here it is again:
http://www.tv4play.se/aktualitet/nyhetsmorgon?videoId=1.1802312
What are people in Sweden saying about the veracity of the “leaked” police reports–portions of which appeared in the Daily Mail and (I believe) Aftonbladet? Are they indeed legit?
No, I have seen the following Telegraph headline claim repeated (endlessly) however I do not find any such “admission” by Assange or otherwise cited within the story. (Headline writers are generallY NOT the author of the piece and often in my experience misrepresent article content)
9th Sep 19:00 Update: Assange’s new lawyer describes case as “strangely handled”. He says: “All this fuss and yet he has not even been questioned or arrested for rape. I have my own thoughts on what may have happened.”
Full story here: http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article7756189.ab
Bad translation here:
I’ll reply to some of the other comments here shortly.
Assange has said repeatedly that everything was consensual, nothing was non-consensual … but also that he does not know what the allegation(s?) — wrt “rape” are — i.e. what he has been accused of doing —
Absent either a direct quote or a video snip, I’m willing at present to doubt he actually admitted anything except consensual whatever.
My impression was that the alleged admission was contained in that alleged leaked police interview report wrt the “molestation” accusation …… the authenticy of which was apparently (?) confirmed yesterday or so.
I haven’t seen that document — either to my knowledge, either directly quoted or photo-reproduced. ….
It may be out there … who knows?
My guess is that the transcript we really need (although will probably never get) is of the first phone call SW made to AA.
Who asked leading questions? Who, out of shock and anger, offered useful details?
I have never heard Assange stating (why ‘admitting’?) that he has had sex with either. His non-denial in either case is exactly what I would expect after hearing his views on verifying documents or other information: if a person says, No, No, We won’t confirm or deny, No, the answer to number 3 becomes rather obvious. Also, as a private citizen, he is entitled to keep that information private, and he is obviously more vigilant about privacy / transparency issues than most.
The only relevant information I have heard was his statement that texts on his phone disprove some of the women’s claims, but the prosecuter was not interested in looking at them.
Unless we are to believe the Expressen transcript where he states he had sex with one of them several times between the hours of something and something and wore a condom … are we? Does anyone know if that was based on anything real?
I would not find it out of character, based on a man who was living with his girlfriend when he was 16, and whose old blog had some interesting anecdotes. I just find it irrelevant and not my business as I am sure he does as well. And he has stated many times that his values are that people, especially men, should not talk publicly of their private lives.
@Erik, We’ll just have to agree to disagree. I don’t want this comment thread hijacked by an argument between you and me when there are other voices to be heard so I’ll leave it there. I think we’re both on the same page that something is very strange with this case and that WikiLeaks is being targeted for trying to publish the truth but we differ on the reasons why and our increasingly heated exchange could just go on and on.
@ Anonymous and Susan, The most Assange has ever said is that “I have never, in Sweden or elsewhere, had sex with someone that wasn’t entirely consensual” and after finally learning who the women were that brought the accusations added, “I have not done anything with these two women that was not completely voluntary from both parts.” There is not admission of sex there although the second quote certainly sounds like it. If he didn’t have sex with them, then he’s making life very difficult for himself by being cryptic. Why not do a Bill Clinton and say, “I did not have sexual relations with those women” (although in Clinton’s case, he actually did). The Telegraph headline “Wikileaks founder admits sexual relations with accuser” is very presumptuous on their part although you can understand them reading between the lines on the second quote.
I think it would clear-up a lot of doubt if he just said “I haven’t had sex in the last x months or weeks” (if that indeed is the case as a “close friend” claimed earlier in this thread) although I also understand Assange also has a right to his own privacy and also may be concerned that it would compromise the case in some way.
@GeorgieBC, Exactly. Why are the police not interested in his phone activity during the alleged crimes? Probably because the entire case would fall flat on its arse if they did. They’re not interested in evidence – they’re not even interested in speaking to him and it seems overwhelmingly obvious that they are willfully trying to obstruct the course of justice. I also agree with you (and Assange) that it’s not very nice to discuss someone else’s private life but in this case, it’s kind of been unavoidable because of the apparent inconsistencies of the accusations, the bizarre handling of it and the circumstantial evidence surrounding the women.
@skdadl, Agreed. Surely it would be possible to even listen to some of the calls the women made to each other. I thought Sweden had recently passed this IPRED law which gives police and government permission to snoop and listen on any electronic communication in Sweden?
Actually Expressen interview cited above by Rick
This is quoting or paraphraing one of the women — not assange …
Is there an expressen interview with Assange?
My posts were in response to: Anonymous @ 4:47, 5:56 p.m. today
I cannot confirm.
Even article (linked above) stating he admittted provides no source
As far as I am aware, he has also not denied — except that any activity was less than consensual
Susan, Admin:
Yeah, this is what I meant: http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/1.2118961/har-ar-forhoret-med-assange-ord-for-ord
This article seems to suggest Assange said himself he had sex with at least one of the women. Google translation quote:
“He acknowledged that he and the woman had had sex the night and morning from 13 to 14 August and claimed that he used condoms.
Police: And it was once or was it multiple times?
- Several times.
Police: And the first time you had a condom then?
- Yes.”
But I can’t say how trustworthy that is…
tomi,
I am not discussing about Swenen here, but this takes place in the U.S.
I think you are very naive! It has nothing to do with culture, but moral values are above the culture. When people hear facts, they cannot absorb, they are convicted and then call the person that wrote with bad names.
admin,
Thanks for clarifying about the moderation. I would like to inform you that I am discussing about feminism in response to the blog is because most of the time, people tend to blame men for everything and that is not fair. So, I was in context of this case, was proving my point that women can be equally blamed but their deeds are not quite visible. So, from now on, this matter is closed! Alright? And, also, you don’t bring it up!
Thanks — I had not read that. It is the Expressen article about the contents of the leaked police report … (I had seen the on-the-street interview with Assange at top but had not seen/read the article below.)
Interesting, wasn’t this interview “only” about the molestation accusation (would it then be only about the accusations of ONE of the women, the one not accusing “rape”?)
Seems denial would be implausable …
Though I suspect some very serious quite painful teeth-gnashing resulted from the “I never mentioned the CIA ” denial …
Thanks again.
Erik
admin (in response to Siboni):
“As regards your comment, “most women are irrational due to their emotions rather than being logical minded” I think you’ll find most people find that a rather sexist claim”
Well, you should stop obsessing with what most people think then….
Scientific truth is not a matter of voting.
“In logic, an argumentum ad populum (Latin: “appeal to the people”) is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or all people believe it; it alleges: “If many believe so, it is so.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
The opinions on “Most people” is the bully argument from high-school. Most people dont like your sweater, thats important for 14 year olds…
Again, these matters have comedic value only.”
Erik,
I like you for this fiery rebuttal on admin. This admin. is a soft ball trying to see who can take his hardball. He is using it on Erik and Siboni (myself).
However, I do believe that as admin. pointed out that Assange’s case smells with higher up getting involved and using these two females. My view on this as a suspicious Sherlock! I like to add comedy in my post in order to avoid drag and seriousness.
I researched on Assange about the earlier allegation reports:
Here’s what I found:
“Hail Julian Assange, international man of mystery, brave anti-war crusader, ultimate cyber-hero and now, according to his cultish followers, victim of a smear campaign orchestrated by the CIA, the Pentagon and other dark, oppressive forces. ”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/7959227/Julian-Assanges-arrest-warrant-a-diversion-from-the-truth.html
I too was confused about female l & 2. Now, it makes clear from reading the above post. As a result, I was confused why would Anna Ardin, if she was No. 1 would go to the police to complain about Assange, when she had initiated the entire seminar and other schedules. Reporters can create a lot of havoc and therefore, I would like to wait and see the final outcome from the new attorney.
In addition, I am appalled and would like to know why all the females were involved in the prosecutorial such as Marianne, Eve, and others, rather than men? Is it normal in Sweden? Just asking!
I think it ought to at least make all travelers check the election schedules of their destination countries.
Only 10 more days (09/19/2010) … Will Assange have to wait that long?
I wonder how this is playing in the goldfish bowl that is Sweden …
Even as an American, crazy as we are about “risky business,” I can’t imagine wanting sexual consent treated like some special case “contract law” … nor would expanding of whatever special “bodily fluids as a deadly weapon” case law already exist to cover everyday ….
But most of all, this use of god-almighty tax dollars and use of civil servants to “resolve’ this matter would probably result in election disaster … We’re loud, but we’re cheap. Absent underaged dewy freshness, we’re pretty jaded.
Apparently waiting is the object? What now for the leaks?
http://bit.ly/95wzOz
http://bit.ly/c26l1v
From Google translate:
“Chief prosecutor Marianne Ny, with special assignment to develop investigative methodology in terms of sex crimes cases, has stated that the case can take a long time, perhaps months. It is odd given that she, in March this year, in a DN interview stressed the importance of rapid treatment of sexual matters. In the case Assange was clearly not the methodology.”
Wired (and newsweek) have news of the next leak …
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/09/iraq-war-docs/
I’m not sure what all is to be published (sounds like it may be considerably more than “just” the remaining 15,000 threat assessments) or when (even approximate)
Many more potential “collaborative journalists” — not named — apparently include TV stations and documentarians …
Yesterday or day before, Assange indicated that release would be delayed from that anticipated — as processes had been delayed. This announcement indicating the addition of a truck load more data — and many more “cooks” — I suspect will add even more time — which is fine, imho — there is no particular real-life real-time urgency. Things in Afghanistan continue to limp along …
After the midterms, Petraeus will testify to Congress in December … Decisions will need to be made and/or avoided. My impression was that Petraeus had no intention of ending up waist-deep in big muddy exhorting his troops onward … this most recent Kill-Klub story is revolting and the final (yup it’s the second, one defendent, everybody else walked) Haditha trial is due to start shortly.
I am glad that the Swedish allegations haven’t completely derailed the very important work that WikiLeaks does.
@Susan Based on who is and isn’t tweeting that I was wondering how credible? Wikileaks says:
“We have no comment as to the claim that our next release is related to the Iraq war.”
which could mean many things …
An Australian perspective on the Assange Affair:
http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/09/09/rundle-wikileaks-i-havent-seen-accusations-says-assange-as-plot-thickens/
Julian Assange – nominee for Most Influential Australian
http://www.news.com.au
Siboni
You wrote:
“I am not discussing about Swenen here, but this takes place in the U.S.
I think you are very naive! It has nothing to do with culture, but moral values are above the culture. When people hear facts, they cannot absorb, they are convicted and then call the person that wrote with bad names.”
As an American female I haven’t a clue what you are going on about here, if that is naive, then yes, gladly. But I’m not so naive that I have changed my mind from any of my earlier posts. I do not accept at face value any possibility that these women reported JA without greater inducement than just a broken condum.. and female revenge using cultural norms in Sweden.
tomi:
“I do not accept at face value any possibility that these women reported JA without greater inducement than just a broken condum.. and female revenge using cultural norms in Sweden.”
You seem to have the ground-rules of science backwards
Not accepting negative claims at face value means accepting positive ones without any evidence of them being true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot
Erik…
LOL at your logic
Susan and GeorgieBC, like you, I cannot get over what Ny is doing. How long can it take to investigate a case involving three people, all of whom are known and available to the prosecutors (although the prosecutors don’t seem that interested in talking to JA, who seems to be offering actual evidence — ie, his phone), in a case that, apart from phone records, pretty much comes down to he-said/she-said (unless one of the women preserved something in her freezer)?
Does anyone know what is happening with the complaint against the prosecutors’ office raised earlier by (if I remember correctly) a former senior prosecutor?
admin:
“Erik, We’ll just have to agree to disagree.”
On what? The need to support accusations against me and Assange with facts/evidence?
“I don’t want this comment thread hijacked by an argument between you and me when there are other voices to be heard so I’ll leave it there.”
Thats just another excuse thats takes up as much room in the thread as an actual answer would have. Its not a difference in space, just in content.
“I think we’re both on the same page that something is very strange with this case”
No there is nothing strange with this case, they have done these things again and again in Sweden this is well known and undisputed fact its a part of political activism. They just happened to do it to an internationally known person (himself a different kind of activist) this time.
Read the blog of Morgonsur (he has worked with lots of things, among them military and police)
“Ingen hade förstås brytt sig om åklagarnas av överheten beordrade hårda linje i sexualmoralens tjänst nu heller, om det inte varit så olyckligt att den märkliga svenska kulturen (som innebär att varje privat kränkning också måste vara ett fall för rättsväsendet) råkade krocka med en internationellt känd person.”
http://morgonsur.wordpress.com/2010/08/23/julian-assange-och-det-svenska-rattsvasendet/
“and that WikiLeaks is being targeted for trying to publish the truth but we differ on the reasons why and our increasingly heated exchange could just go on and on.”
Wikileaks are NOT targeted by swedish justice system for trying to publishing the truth. They are targeted for according to the unwritten PC-code visually being wrong race, wrong gender and of wrong sexual orientation.
However the unwritten code is more and more becoming a written code.
http://genusnytt.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/aff.jpg
The swedish enviromental party: White heterosexual men like Assange is not modern.
http://yfrog.com/f/bgmpannonsj/
The facts are there, where is the argument?
Plant or just vegetable.. not sure.
There is an odd aura of intimidation in their lack of concern — “This could take months…” Concerns about official face-saving. “Tough stance” refusal to admit any poor handling.
Sweeping under rug probably impossible — how do they define “acceptable outcome”?
Living with the consciousness that an arrest warrant “could” be forthcoming at any moment — punitive in and of itself. Abuse of power?
Susan:
“There is an odd aura of intimidation in their lack of concern — “This could take months…” Concerns about official face-saving.”
There NOT lack of concern from Marianne Ny, you people seem not to understand what kind of concern Marianne Ny has. You dont understand what the debate on “rape” is like in Sweden, my country.
The simple fact is that for political and theoretical reasons ONLY! The prosecutors need a higher number of convictions to feed feminist lobby groups with.
Where they get them doesnt matter, its not about convicting the guilty, its about having statictics to feed the hungry women who obsess over needing to feel safe.
And what is Marianne Ny:s job? Her job is to create a routine that results in a higher number of convictions. Thats a political job – not a juridical.
The entire Assange-case is now a “for show” trial to prove to feminists that their cute little opinions and baseless theories (made up on the spot) are more important than proper law traditions.
Traditions? To a cultural marxist (regardless education or ockupation) its of highest importance to deconstruct (destroy) them.
And that takes time.
Example of the political debate in sweden, idiot politician från the enviroment party.
http://www.newsmill.se/artikel/2008/09/05/sex-utan-samtycke-ska-ge-fangelse
These statements from Cryptome have been around for a while, just pointing out that John Young does seem to say what he believes is the truth despite publishing any Gawker-esque crap.
Also highlights the irrelevancy of Birgitta Jonsdottir’s comments as she does not appear to be anything close to a Wikileaks organizer or even in contact with them (barring one phone call).
http://htxt.it/hPzS
John Young disagrees. The 74-year-old architect publishes Cryptome — the site that has published the Insiders’ messages — and is confident the WikiLeaks Insiders are a fraud, though he has no idea who is behind the messages.
“Birgitta Jonsdottir is not a WikiLeaks organizer,” Assange said. “I haven’t spoken to her for months, and first spoke to her in late 2009. She is a full-time politician and single mother in Iceland.”
I am curious as to why Daniel Schmitt–very obviously a WikiLeaks member–hasn’t weighed in on the whole WL insiders thing.
@Siboni, Agreed. Men can be bad. Women can be bad. No more feminism from me either – it’s a deal
@Erik, I get it. So you think WikiLeaks are targeted not because they tell the truth, but because they are run mainly by men instead of women?
@Susan and Anonymous, Thanks for the Expressen link and confirming that Assange has officially admitted sex with the women (assuming that the police report that was mysteriously leaked to Expressen is not a fraud). This means that the commenter root@amsix who claimed he was a close friend of Assange and that Assange had told him he hadn’t had sex for months is lying. Here is the Expressen article in full (badly translated) where Assange confirms he did have sex with the women using a condom. He also says that he was politely rejected by one of the women when he wanted sex again but not in an aggressive or unusual way. It sounds to me as if one of the women may have asked Assange if his condom was on properly, he said that it was and they discussed it no more. That single disputed moment is what the entire case rests on really.
Are prosecutors in Sweden empowered to prosecute against the wishes of the “victims” — calling the victims as “hostile witnesses”?
I do not believe this is universal in the United States but was part of how Michael Jackson was finally prosecuted (that prosecutor was instrumental in getting the law changed to permit prosecutions against the wishes of the victims) and and how Kobe Bryant was almost prosecuted.
The idea was that victims often don’t want to press charges and go through the ordeal of a trial — so the state forces it on them. It was advertised as a way to prosecute repeat offenders, but seems to have created yet another deterrent to reporting rape, domestic violence, etc.
Don’t men hold up half the sky in Sweden? I find excessive “protections” to verge on and cross over into infantalizing. We can all call 911 and summon the police if need be.
While I don’t need to see the phone messages, my impression is that both alleged “victims” were a-ok when they parted from Assange and only later “determined” that they had a “problem” … I can understand feeling angry if I felt someone had used a well-practiced ploy to violate a “ground rule” — but not a police matter, not a crime.
Note: I am not saying this was a “well-practiced ploy” — rather, I have gotten the impression that the complaintants compared notes and felt more than coincidence was at play.
Is the Expressen article then confirmed to be based on the real transcript? What happened to the confirmed leak to the other paper later – has anything been printed from that?
Still not understanding the use of the word ‘admitted’ – is having consensual adult sex a crime in Sweden? Also, even if the above is real, ‘womEn’ is incorrect, they are only discussing one womAn. (Why, I wonder …)
Erik,
You made some strong points. I had read the books of Bertrand Russel sometime ago and I found that he was a mathematician and an atheist trying to prove God.
I would like to add this an interesting statement made by:
“Another counter-argument, advanced by Eric Reitan, is that belief in God is different from belief in a teapot because teapots are physical and therefore in principle verifiable, and that given what we know about the physical world we have no good reason to think that belief in Russell’s teapot is justified and at least some reason to think it not.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot
I believe that God is abstract in the sense his existence is without body or form something like the atoms or the magnetic power, or the electricity. Therefore, it is not tangible. The physical world is all seeing because it has been created by atoms into shape and form. I think the atheist are simply wasting their time trying to figure out who God is. We just may have to take the simple faith of a child.
With regards to the Assange fiasco, I just received an email notification about the women. I now, have a clear identity of Woman No. l is Anna Ardin who reported to the Espressen. I am not going to write the details here.
Also, your breakdown of the case is so bizarre in that I am appalled that Sweden is creating such a havoc on what these women have said about their encounter. If the prosecutors had flip flopped with their statements in the U.S., the evidence would have been thrown out. We are extremely sensitive how it was obtained. The detectives have to follow the constitutional laws and not just get the evidence by planting it.
So much for the Swedish judicial system that is about to collapse by incompetent female prosecutors who are fighting for something other than truly wanting to resolve the case. This is not Assange, this is for something sinister than Assange’s case.
I hope this Anna Ardin did not pick up his condom and drop the content on her panties (sorry, I being blunt and hate to write this way on the blog) to keep a trace of it. If I were the prosecutor, I would surely ask Anna and Sophia why the heck they kept JA if they thought that he was too pushy. They could have either asked Assange to leave or they could have left the place and told him that they have other busy schedules. The moment they were participants in this act makes both guilty (if it was considered a crime which I don’t think so) of the act. So, equally both are to be blamed. Her one time “yes” answer and then “no” answer may not be taken in by men as a serious one. They may think that she wants it but she is kind of suggesting “no.” This case is very silly and must be thrown out. No wonder, the former attorney of Assange is shocked by their attitude. Men think and act differently and it is the perception of these women here is at stake.
These women need to blurt out what they really want from Assange? Is it his money or his …whatever. Or may be just to get fame or to throw mud on his career or to make a big deal during the election or to sabotage one’s career.. Wow, the list can on…
Assange has to stick to his guns and be cautious. They may pretend to act like they have lots of other evidence behind the scenes. Sometimes they do that to terrify the person. Interrogations can be tricky. Some men in the U.S. have said some things that were entirely false under pressure. So, then the entire evidence had to be thrown out by the judge. When asked why did he confess, he said, if he hadn’t, the interrogators would be putting more pressure on him physically (torture). To evade more torture, he gave them what they wanted.
I know I am going too deep into this subject. So, let me stop here.
Or is it “admitted” because previously he offered only “no comment” or equivalent?
@GeorgieBC If you read the Expressen article online, you would see that they had included what appears to be a faxed copy of one page of the transcript, so yes, it is valid. Expressen didn’t translate that page, but Rixstep did, and I’ve appended his translation:
(FL = förhörsledare, leader of the interrogation;
FV = probably förhörsvikarie, assistant interrogator or someone from the familjvåldsenheten, if there is such a thing;
LS/Adv = Leif Silbersky, Julian Assange’s advokat – lawyer.)
FL: That she rejected a sexual advance from you?
JA: Yes, sometimes but not in a way that was significant. No, not something that would not be normal.
FL: Then we return to the first night. Did you…
JA: Yes.
FL: Now I’ll ask [FV] if you have something you want to discuss.
FV: No.
FL: Leif, something you want to… ?
LS: I have a few questions.
FL: OK.
LS: At what time of day did you and [Ardin] have [sex], the approximate time?
JA: Late at night and early in the morning.
LS: What would you say, what time approximately? Three, four, five?
JA: Between 23:00 and 05:00.
LS: OK. Was there any alcohol?
JA: No.
LS: Neither of you?
JA: Yes, I don’t remember that I should have drunk any greater amount. We can have had wine at dinner. But it was not an evening where we drank a lot.
Thanks Colleen, I had forgotten the Rixstep article.
http://rixstep.com/1/20100902,00.shtml
The “admitted” seems to have originated with Expressen or a translation … I wouldn’t personally reproduce the word as it implies there is something wrong with a 39 year old single man having adult consensual sex in Sweden.
Not only would that just add to the world wide “That’s rape in Sweden” joke, it seems to reinforce an opinion out there, in places, that for Assange to have sex at all was stupid, weak, or immoral. Obviously different cultures have different readings on even adult consensual sex, and even some very progressive cultures (Japan, the US) seem to regulate sex in their pop culture to wierd porn instead of a normal healthy part of adult life. Another way this is so harmful, something that would not be considered anything less than normal or healthy in Assange’s home country (or mine) is held up for moral judgement by countries (or individuals) that perhaps still feel abstinence is more virtuous.
All very distracting from the message.
And to think that Julian and Anna did have a seminar to attend to the next day.
I did think, when seeing Anna Ardin on the video, together with Julian and Sofia Wilen, that Anna seemed to be like in shock when she was bringing the microphone to the next speaker in the audience. She certainly didn’t look like a happy woman there.
It’s not difficult to imagine Ardin seeking out Wilen in the days after the conference to satisfy her own curiosity, confirm her suspicions, and perhaps offer big-sisterly advice.
Would association with Ardin benefit Wilen socially, wrt career, networking?
Consulting the police could be framed as a matter of being “responsible” and bravely (and self-righteously) performing a “public service” for “all women” unswayed by Assanges’ popularity and power. Yeah right, sisterhood is powerful.
Shudder
FWIW, I’m inclined to believe Assange that he was both clueless and blindsided
You can’t have sex before a seminar?
As I understand the (possibly fictional) timeline we have so far, AA did not know SW before the day of the seminar, and they didn’t really compare notes until the Tuesday or Wednesday following, when SW called AA. My current theory is that that was not an innocent phone call, but ymmv.
Fourth leak to Aftonbladet http://bit.ly/ce8iJd
It all makes perfect sense. Make”rapist” breakfast, joke about pregnancy, to “rapist” and ask “rapist” when he’s going to call again.
Georgie:
You are completely confusing things. Sweden is sexually progressive and most swedish people have no problem with anyone having sex with anyone, however there is a huge huuuuuuuge feminist chivalry factor involved here.
Thus the question is not whether sex is allowed, the question is should it be legal or not for Assange to promise a woman she is the only one, and then go and have sex with another younger woman behind the back of the first one?
Also, if a woman lie to the guy about being on the pill, would she be a rapist for having sex not the way he prefers?
I was not referring to Sweden, I was referring to his audience worldwide.
About those condoms — I’ve always taken care of the birth control in my relationships, most of which were open and exclusive enough and long ago enough that STD avoidance was not high on my list of things to worry about then … Anyway, still, I’m pretty certain that if I were sexually active — in anticipation of new partners of short acquaintance — I would make sure I had plenty of the little darlings in my nightstand.
How many is an optimistic male supposed to carry on his person?
I’ve read they are available EVERYWHERE … Wasn’t there an all-night convenience store within walking distance?
Inquiring minds … and all that.
@ Susan. The closest place to buy condoms near AAs home would probably be the 24hr Statoil gas station across the main road that goes north towards Sala. Right next to it is a McDs, in case they were hungry and needed some power before they went at it. The walk would not tire them too much, it would be about 3-400 meters one way.
Actually, if you do a search now at http://www.hitta.se on her name, you no longer get her home address. But I found it before and I think there is a link up there somewhere.
Some of this is becoming quite funny — until you remember that JA is in danger. It’s true, though, that “That’s rape in Sweden” is becoming an international joke. Do just about anything and someone will say “That’s rape in Sweden,” and then everyone rolls about laughing.
Sorry. I’ll behave now.
@skdadl – yeah, it’s about as funny as a Soviet gulag comedy. Except it has sex.
yes, not actually funny at all (though it can be infuriating and almost comically mindboggling) when folks claim it’s somehow about the principle — which one? otherwise evidenced how?
I suppose that some of us are hoping that Marianne Ny and associates in public life will get the message that they are are making fools of themselves.
Does anyone know if it is more likely that they are delaying for the election, or because the delay itself causes problems? Is this any kind of a last minute election issue, might it be, and if so, would that benefit JA or no?
Skdadl, it has completely destroyed romantic movies. We were trying to watch Romeo & Juliet the other night and could barely get through – Leo is SUCH a rapist! In Sweden.
@Susan, You say: “While I don’t need to see the phone messages, my impression is that both alleged “victims” were a-ok when they parted from Assange”. Agreed. One of first reactions of one of the women was to send text messages to her friends telling them she had been “raped”. I think that sounds like a rather unlikely way to react if you’ve just genuinely gone through the trauma of a rape. As regards your question whether the women could be “forced” to testify against their will by the state in Sweden, I’m not sure. Maybe a Swede could help answer this one? The fact that the girls went to the police “only to ask for advice” as they claim, would make such a scenario possible where it became just the Swedish State (read US Government) v Assange.
@Colleen, Thanks for reproducing a more accurate translation of the interview.
@GeorgieBC, I’m really sorry but your comment kept getting put into moderation automatically because of the Rixstep link. I’ve approved the original one now and deleted the other efforts you made to get it online. You say; “Does anyone know if it is more likely that they are delaying for the election, or because the delay itself causes problems? Is this any kind of a last minute election issue, might it be, and if so, would that benefit JA or no?” I think it is highly convenient for politicians that this “sex scandal” is being strung out just before the election. After all, Swedish politicians, like politicians everywhere, have a vested interest in avoiding talking about real issues that people care about before elections. Although the Swedish media haven’t exactly been concentrating exclusively on the Assange case since it happened, I’m sure Swedish politicians have welcomed the diversion.
@skdadl, You say: “As I understand the (possibly fictional) timeline we have so far, AA did not know SW before the day of the seminar, and they didn’t really compare notes until the Tuesday or Wednesday following, when SW called AA.” I agree although, AA was Assanges “Press Officer” for this event I think and SW seems to have been given permission to sit near the front of the seminar and take lots of photos. I’m not sure if SW would have had to ask permission from AA to do that.
@Susan, You say: “I’ve read condoms are available EVERYWHERE … Wasn’t there an all-night convenience store within walking distance?” The police report leaked in Expressen confirms that they did use condoms:
This suggests that on at least one occasion, a condom wasn’t used or there was an issue with the one that was used. The police have censored the leaked report so no one can quite work out what happened.
By the way, an interesting tweet by WikiLeaks about how the US could shut down WikiLeaks overnight if it really wanted. In which case, would they really go through all the hassle of framing Assange like this? I guess they might just for the hell of tarnishing WikiLeaks in some way:
http://www.thecubablog.com/uncategorized/staff/the-us-has-a-way-to-shut-down-wikileaks-the-infamous-sdn-list/
@ admin: My tech knowledge could hardly be more minimal, but I find that link (cubablog) a bit hard to worry over. For one thing, a lot of us are already not .com or .org (I’m .ca, eg). I also understood that WL had alternative domains anyway — maybe someone smarter than I can explain that to us.
Plus what is this nonsense about taking holidays in Cuba? Who but right-wing Americans thinks that’s a shocking thing to do? Half of Canada has been to Cuba. Surely Clinton is not stupid enough to try that.
I continue to think that JA’s high public profile is his and WL’s best protection. My dad was an old-fashioned newspaperman, ended up an editor but was always most proud to call himself a reporter. I remember him telling me when I was very young: if you ever have a secret that you think might be dangerous to you, go public. Go as public as you can. There is no better protection.
I think that that is what WL did by high-profiling JA, and I still think it was smart, the smartest thing they could do, even if it’s a dangerous game to be playing right now.
The Americans wouldn’t dare. In spite of everything, I don’t think they would dare. (And if they do, they’ll have me to answer to.)
Being “shut down” ? What a delightful challenge to a billion sleepless geeks. Or they can be wide awake. Such a game, and puzzle the situation has become. Something for everyone.
yes, we are stuck back with
“what really happened? ”
followed by “is that a crime?” and
if it’s a crime (or should be a crime),
what would that crime be called and how might it be prosecuted?
(must hope there are not legions of women lined up to tell their own very special Julian Assange story — though this has been going on long enough, leakily enough, that I think we’d have heard — endlessly)
skdadl and Aries Dobbs: The thing is, I always think like that, and then I go to read the comments and articles on the most ‘intelligent’ marekaan sites I can find and holy crap! Really, it is impossible to underestimate the propaganda wall these people are living behind. Is it the food, the pharmaceuticals, the ‘education’ system, I don’t know, but I never stop being amazed at what they will accept. So discouraging, it doesn’t seem possible to get logic through.
Right now, they seem perfectly accepting of ‘wikileaks is bad’, ‘assange is a rapist and a megalomaniac’, and the complete disintegration of their constitution. I don’t think there is anything their government wouldn’t dare, and they don’t read anything that isn’t about Lindsay Lohan, so they wouldn’t care what we say.
Above is a gross generalization of the general trend, obviously excluding many brilliant US citizens who are having the same struggle to be heard.
@skdadl How confident are you that our prime minister will not obey orders?
The CubaBlog, however, links to the NYT blog “Sidebar” for its information
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/04/us/04bar.html
Sidebar: A Wave of the Watch List, and Speech Disappears – ADAM LIPTAK – Published: March 4, 2008
Speech disappears.
People disappear.
Rights disappear.
GeorgieBC, that’s the saddest thing, isn’t it? If I thought the kid would be safe here, he could have the run of my place (I’m ‘way too old to commit rape, btw, even in Sweden), but I think that he would be in as much danger in Canada as he obviously would be in the U.S.
The Merkins are just making law up these days (see the Schumer-Feinstein amendment to the whistleblower bill), aimed at individuals they don’t like, and yes, Jeppesen-Dataplan pretty much ends the rule of international law in the U.S. So that’s desperately bad.
But some of our defence people have echoed the nonsense from Washington about WL, and I’m sure that Harper would be happy to allow a kidnapping (Orwellian euphemism: extraordinary rendition) from southern Ontario.
Damn. I am sorry about that. I’m quite ashamed of my own country right now. Wonderful peeps, horrifying politicians.
@skdadl See Marc Emery. I too wish I could think that either Bradley Manning or JA would be safe here but I’m not such a dreamer. Where is safe now? Cuba? (So glad to have Fidel back speaking!)
To: GeorgieBC
Here is the irony.. Being American and reading all these posts, I’ve been thinking to myself …. Well what can you say to people (here) who don’t seem to realise what is so obvious? I mean, it’s reminding me of all the brainwashing that went on throughout the world about Iraq’s WMD’s. Every pundit and intellectual from every corner of the world analysed this war cry each way possible in full view of the obvious fact that an oil cartel was in charge of the WhiteHouse.. Enough NOISE.. the job got done.
In my opinion, that is what is happening here. And it is so obvious to me at least and I’m sure many others who know the US’s reach and potential very well.
The white wash (cover) is Sweden’s potential to ensnare with a rape charge with blurry definitions. Add to that some preponderance of cultural acceptablilty to this kind accusation.
A perfect means of waging an operation that is invisible, intangible, impossible to know, but at the root of what happened to JA to begin with.
The obvious signs to me are the legal representations provided for these women and their cavalier attitudes, before and after. Especially after.
And it’s not just America’s Pentagon going after Wikileaks and JA as the figure head and identity for Wikileaks, it’s thousands of agencies across the world, networked together the old fashioned way.. they are on one side and wikileaks is on the other..
Very good point tomi, it’s really a stateless war, the military industrial complex against the anonymous cloud, with an ignorant populace as the prize.
And its not just the agencies, (not to sound paranoid but this is the way it is..) it’s your fireman, meter maid, postoffice worker, detectives, secretaries… everyone’s got a secret to protect or many just want to help the man to preserve the continuity and their security.
I don’t know what it will take for America to “snap out of it.” It’s like we’ve been in an ongoing tantrum for the last decade or more, everyone seeming to want to impress everyone else just how passionately, self-righteously furious they are. Unfortunately, “everyone” has become less and less attractive, sympathetic, less apparently trust-worthy over time.
The political opportunists are taking every advantage, capitalizing on fear, social division.
The Wikileaks can help, is helping. Increasingly America is a Potemkin country. Like every family shielding their dysfunction from neighbor’s eyes, individually and collectively, we fear all hell breaking loose. Everyone fears. Everyone is outraged, anxious, 24/7/365. Exhaustion must come.
See also: Chris Hedges — Inverted totalitarianism.
Probably straying off topic here, but Glenn Greenwald just posted a link to this amazing Hunter Thompson article written 9/12/2001 Prescient is right. http://is.gd/f64HY
It concludes “The lid is on. Loose Lips Sink Ships. Don’t say anything that might give aid to The Enemy.”
We’re getting some good national profiles here. U.S.: major paranoia, leading to suppression of rule of law. Canada: moderate infection of contagious paranoia from the U.S. Sweden: if you’re rude to someone in Sweden — like, if you just ignore them as you’re texting — you can be accused of molestation.
Next?
And in Sweden investigating a political figure wrt possible “sex crimes” is no big deal (open ended — no hurry) — but the suggestion that such an investigation during election season might be politically motivated or influenced is far too politically sensitive to even publically acknowledge much less address.
Julian is like an exotic pet, and the wrong people are surrounding him like a pawn. The “peasants” would hopefully have settled it by now, and he’d be on his way. A free man. I was looking at a website that had a diagram of the Swedish Legal System. It looked complicated. It is complicated. Too many cooks in the kitchen ? Something like that. I have been reading comments from all over the world about Julian’s situation and the “scandal.” I am amazed by the sheer numbers of people who are “just plain stupid.” I have American friends who like Julian, and appreciate what he does, but there are some crazies who believe the nasty articles about him, and re-parrot the lies.
I wonder also how the Australian election could affect JA’s status there. I’m no expert on the various party positions on the internet blacklists debated in Australia, but that must be a worry to WL in general and to JA personally.
Mhm, Cryptome is talking about witchcraft and are using some themselves… They got a screenshot of the above Cuba Blog and this screenshot shows something, the original does not:
“No Responses
Julian Assange Says: Your comment is awaiting moderation.
September 11th, 2010 at 8:36 pm
We understand this to mean that the USG does not want to shut down
Wikileaks, perhaps for our value in seducing the unwary to send us leaks.
We note that mirrors of the two alleged CU-related sites appeared as soon as
they were axed. Wikileaks will also appear in other guises if it is censored.
We are ready for that with the dozens of real and spoof Wikileaks sites
around the world supported by thousands of volunteers, some not entirely
loyal. We stand with Cuba, Iran, North Korea, Syria, Venezuela, Israel,
Belgium and Iceland. We regret the loss of Sweden’s once promising
sanctuary to a snarling coven of witches.”
If this comment is still waiting for moderation, then I wonder how it could be captured. However. This way it appears here earlier than there…
All I can imagine is that someone calling themselves “Julian Assange” wrote the comment and took the screen shot — and sent it to cryptome — and that Cuba Today deleted the comment — Curiously, I find zero comments currently …
“On the internet, no one knows you’re a dog …. “
I agree, Susan. I had to think about this for a moment, but there is only that one way.
The writer tried to send his comment and got the message, that his comment would be reviewed before publishing. He wanted it to be published and used a PDF-converter – one of those, which work like a printer. Then he sent it to the one place which would publish it in either case: Cryptome.
At first sight I thought, this could be legit. But a second look at the countries mentioned clearly shows, it is fake:
- Cuba, bad bad communists
- Iran – bad bad Muslims
- North Korea – worst communists of all
- Syria – another bad Muslim country
The others were mentioned anyway or only appear to fill up a little.
I guess the message is: Wikileaks is a dangerous threat, they collaborate with Muslims and Communists – and even with Jews!
Yes, that last should really rile the usual parties … who haven’t yet and will never forgive Julian for not being an ardent 09/11 truther …
Has this been linked: Assange Affair: Helin Calls Internal Affairs ‘Kling & Klang’
The “leaked” Assange police interview report was apparently obtained by a reporter simply requesting it in the usual way fashion …
http://rixstep.com/1/20100910,00.shtml
He’s particularly annoyed by reports that he contacted the police to inform them that he had received the ‘leaked’ report …
And to think I’ve always considered the Pakistan press remarkably unreliable ….
Somebody keeps changing Julian Assange’s Wikipedia profile picture. If you look at the site right now, the picture used is pretty unflattering. JA himself has expressed the wish that another another picture be used: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Julian_Assange#Notes_from_Julian_Assange
He has btw, confirmed that those are his comments in Wikipedia. I can get the source if someone needs to know.
Can anybody change this? I am blocked right now, otherwise I would. Thanks!
Not only can I not believe that JA would write such an incoherent and undisciplined message, but I can’t believe that John Young would believe it either. (Where did Israel come from in that list?)
I quite understand Young’s principles — we publish what we get — but really, some stuff is just trolling and hardly worth the bother.
@ Anonymous: Can that note be verified? There’s an American spelling of “honor/honour” in there — does anyone know how Australians spell honour? I should have thought they were still Oxford, like us.
I honestly don’t think that anyone needs to worry about JA’s photos.
@skdadl
“Wikipedian: I have been editing the articles about WikiLeaks on the english wikipedia, if you have read them, what do you think about them? Was it really you who commented on the talk page on “your own” article?
Julian Assange: Thank you. There are frequent attempts by military apologists and others to manipulate our Wikipedia pages. It was me who commented, yes.”
http://www.dn.se/nyheter/chattar/wikileaks-grundare-julian-assange-chattade-1.1154564
That is a good interview, Anonymous, and I can accept that it is legit — I can hear JA’s voice there and recognize his views. Note the date, however: 16 August.
By contrast, I just don’t know how to evaluate what turns up at Wikipedia, or how it may have been edited lately.
@skdadl Click on history. Read all the fights
Interesting that JA’s entry on Wikipedia has been brought up. Literally within hours of the first rape allegations being made public, one or two people wasted no time in adding those allegations to Wikipedia. That in itself was highly dubious.
In case this has not been covered.
Here is a blogpost by Mikael Eriksson telling about the discussion/debate he had online with alleged rape victim Anna Ardin (this took place 21-28 may 2010)
“She (aided by a similar minded debater) went through several iterations of decreasing rationality—and ended in complete idiocy. In fact, her idiocy was such that I have to admit that my annoyance partially got the better of me when I answered.”
http://michaeleriksson.wordpress.com/2010/07/01/unfair-argumentation-methods-vii-swedish-example/
Philip Shenon again at the Daily Beast, http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-09-12/pentagons-wikileaks-war-room-readies-for-new-document-dump/
– this time profiling the special team at the Pentagon who think they’re smarter than Julian and WL. So far it seems to take about 120 of them working 24/7.
@skadadl, About going public, I agree. If Assange wasn’t so well known he may well have “mysteriously disappeared” by now. As regards the .com ban mentioned on the Cuba blog, if they can shut down .com’s, surely .orgs etc aren’t far behind. Whatever, it’s an outrageous piece of censorship.
I hesitate to publish this next link considering I’ve done my very best to stop people “women bashing” on this thread, but it is quite ironic timing. I especially find their aim of:
“*Change rape legislation to shift burden of truth from the victim” rather hard to understand. Surely if this case has proved anything, it’s way too easy to cry rape in Sweden (although I hasten to add, we don’t know exactly what happened yet but the women themselves have admitted the sex was consensual at various times during this investigation):
“Introducing The Feminist Initiative”:
http://www.thelocal.se/28968/20100913/
admin:
“I hesitate to publish this next link considering I’ve done my very best to stop people “women bashing” on this thread”
Woman and feminist is not (even nearly) the same thing
The number of people behaving like they were unaware of this logically undeniable fact is amazing.
Again feministbahing and womanbashing has exactly
NOTHING in common.
Woman = Biologically determined sex/gender
Feminist = Politically determined person of any gender
“I especially find their aim of: “*Change rape legislation to shift burden of truth from the victim” rather hard to understand.”
It means instead of the court proving the man has committed a rape on a woman – the man has to prove he did not rape the woman. Rape is assumed to have taken place. Guilty until proven innoncent as every non-feminist person with a law degree called it.
They want the court to be be instructed to ask idiotic questions as “how did you know she really really really wanted sex and did not feel pressured into it by the situation?”
(Observe that according to them there is neither need for violence or threat to commit rape, being insensitive to her feelings on any matter is enough)
“Surely if this case has proved anything, it’s way too easy to cry rape in Sweden (although I hasten to add, we don’t know exactly what happened yet but the women themselves have admitted the sex was consensual at various times during this investigation):”
Again: Their (the feminists, not the women) goal is a larger numbers of the accusations to lead to convictions. The only thing this case proves to them is the need to change to law so consensual sex means you have to make sure the sex is consensual.
“Introducing The Feminist Initiative”
And here is the song that was performed at their party gathering;
“We hate you damn man….”
You talk a lot about “woman bashing” but I dont hear you people talk a lot about malebashing.
Erik, as has been made very clear repeatedly on this blog, many of JA/WL’s supporters ARE feminists, from many countries.
We tend to agree that something is wrong in the behaviour of the Swedish prosecutors; we are perfectly capable of thinking this through rationally and continuing to support JA by default (any true democrat should).
What we’re resisting is some wild overgeneralizations that have been made about feminists here, every bit as bad as the overgeneralizations you claim feminists make about men. We have men’s-rights extremists in Canada too. They’re not rational, don’t run on evidence, and I can’t see that they’re going to be any help to JA, who doesn’t sound like one of them to me.
There does seem to be an implied default assumption that women DO NOT want sex … and somehow must be shifted from that negative default, but — of course — not by coersion, promises, threats, what have you — so, still the default remains rather puritanically that women would rather not…
I had kind of hoped we were past that negative idea that women “put out” for secondary (manipulative, manipulated) reasons — rather than acting affirmatively because they want to
skdadl:
“Erik, as has been made very clear repeatedly on this blog, many of JA/WL’s supporters ARE feminists, from many countries.”
Yes! And thats why I repeatedly in the full text at Aktivarum wrote this was about Radical feminism.
“We tend to agree that something is wrong in the behaviour of the Swedish prosecutors; we are perfectly capable of thinking this through rationally and continuing to support JA by default (any true democrat should).”
Yes, the problem is: Before all this happened, Anna Ardin would have supported Assange as well as called herself true democrat. The real challenge for democracy comes not when you fight for something you like but for something you dont like due to democracy demanding alternative opnions.
“What we’re resisting is some wild overgeneralizations that have been made about feminists here, every bit as bad as the overgeneralizations you claim feminists make about men.”
No! That is in fact absolutely impossible.
Although generalisations about, for instance “Republicans” in USA can be bad – they would never even come close to how bad it would be to say the same things about “Blacks”
Thus saying bad things about feminists would be allowed since its the same as bashing reps or dems
Saying bad things about men are not even close to being the same thing as saying bad things about feminists.
“We have men’s-rights extremists in Canada too. They’re not rational, don’t run on evidence, and I can’t see that they’re going to be any help to JA, who doesn’t sound like one of them to me.”
Clearly I have to repeat myself because you are still confusing women with feminism. Bashing mens rights activists and basing MEN is not the same thing.
You can bash people for what political opinion they CHOSE to have. You cant bash them for what gender, race or sexual orientation they happened to have been born in.
When feminists talk bad about men, Men talking bad about feminism is NOT a defense at all.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-09-12/pentagons-wikileaks-war-room-readies-for-new-document-dump/
Thousands of agencies pitted against millions of sleepless coders and millions across the world ready to further the cause of transparancy jouralism. Who would you bet on ?
Damn, Erik is back. Here we, go woman-hating train to crazy town. Again. Thanks admin, for posting that link.
Susan:
“There does seem to be an implied default assumption that women DO NOT want sex”
No not really Susan, we left that assumption during the 60 s with the bra-burning (and thoug the current debate is similar, many missed the change of times). The current assumption is that men have to EARN women to want sex with them cause women do not want to have sex with any man, just with the “special” ones
(Suggested reading: Neil Strauss – The Game)
“… and somehow must be shifted from that negative default, but — of course — not by coersion, promises, threats, what have you — so, still the default remains rather puritanically that women would rather not…”
Actually no, the default has changed from “women do not want to have sex” to “women want to have sex with SOME men – but not the offensive/ugly/lazy/poor/boring/macho/ etc (depends on the woman)
Example: When this man (Comedian Joe Rogan) is offensive to her – she assume no woman would want him.
“I had kind of hoped we were past that negative idea that women “put out” for secondary (manipulative, manipulated) reasons — rather than acting affirmatively because they want to”
You are then missing the point
“Because they want to” is no real reason whatsoever
You will still need to have a discussion on “WHEN” (during what conditions) women want to have sex.
But thats just the point Most modern women do not WANT to discuss this at all.
Girls gladly discuss the ideal conditions on sex and hookups in theory. You can find these idealistic fantasies in any womens mag and in lots of movies.
But few women when discussing what women want in fact discuss the guys they actually did have sleep with.
However (and this is the point)
We do not need to ask women for permission to document which guys they are more likely to go for.
We do not need sociologists at all.
In fact, whenever we men want we are in our full right to lie about ourselves to see if the reception is similar or different comparing to whether presenting ourselves as clerks or drummers of the rockband “Hellacopters”
Lets say you have 20 women
How many of those do you reallly think act the same way regardless those “secondary reasons”?
Anomymous:
The only reply you will get from me on that subject is that since you cant even understand the difference between feminism and women – me discussing anything with you is pointless.
Woman – a gender (biological)
Feminism – an opinion (choice)
Come back to me when you have reached the age of intellectual adulthood.
So Erik, nobody wants to have sex with you. Is that your point? Is that where all this anger is coming from?
@Erik
Why don’t you come back when you’ve moved out your parent’s basement?
Erik, maybe you can create a blog that pertains specifically to your interest of feminism in Sweden, but it is not, as seems obvious at this point, to be the main root of JA’s legal issues.
Anonymous:
“So Erik, nobody wants to have sex with you. Is that your point? Is that where all this anger is coming from?”
This is pure comedy:) Dare I even ask what connection you possibly could find between MY sexlife and the international statistics on sex research?
Would you mind explaing how you get those two even remotely connected?
Most newbies learn there is a difference between data on several million people in several different countries and their personal SELF
Did your teachers miss that part?
Well, I can’t speak for every feminist, o’ course, but I want to have sex with men when the men I want to have sex with are men I want to have sex with because I want to have sex with those men … but only IF it happens to be the case that the men I want to have sex are men I want to have sex with who also want to have sex with me.
(Could someone else check my logic there?) YMMV, and I apologize if that sounded heterosexist. Very gay/lesbian-positive here, but I can’t help still liking men a lot.
@ tomi, if it takes 120 of them working 24/7 to keep up with JA/WL, I’m still betting on our team.
There does seem to be a particularly aggressive faction of feminists in Sweden and for those that think it has nothing to do with this case, there is evidence on AA’s blog to suggest that her feminist leanings may have been a lethal cocktail when combined with her hurt at having found out Assange slept with someone else. The YouTube link Erik provides is something I can’t imagine from a political party in many other countries for example – a group of women from a legitimate political party (who won 0.6% of the vote at the last Swedish election) on stage to a packed audience singing “I hate you f*cking man”. Maybe it’s possible to see why there is such a backlash from men like Erik in Sweden who feel that such feminists have gone too far. However, some of your previous comments Erik weren’t aimed at extreme feminists – they were aimed at women in general saying for example that “women don’t earn as much as men because they’re not prepared as much” which is why you have been accused of out and out “women bashing” on here.
That said, let’s not go too much further down this road again. I can understand Erik is pissed-off with the kind of extreme-feminism that’s obviously evident in Swedish politics (even if they did only win 0-6% of the vote) although I still don’t think this case against Assange can be attributed simply to an extreme-feminist plot.
And erm, for everyone’s sake, let’s not get into Erik’s or anyone elses sex life please – I think there’s enough bedroom intrigue surrounding this case without introducing ours into it.
skdadl
“Well, I can’t speak for every feminist, o’ course, but I want to have sex with men when the men I want to have sex with are men I want to have sex with”
Yes, and the question was: WHAT is your favorite color… No actually thats Monte Python. The real question was what makes a man you meet a man you want to have sex with generally speaking?
“because I want to have sex with those men … but only IF it happens to be the case that the men I want to have sex are men I want to have sex with who also want to have sex with me.”
Well in the case that is ALL needed, then you would have sex with every man who wants to have sex with you. Thats highly unlikely.
“YMMV, and I apologize if that sounded heterosexist. Very gay/lesbian-positive here, but I can’t help still liking men a lot.”
That comment makes being straight sound soooooo like the new gay.
Do men and women have to start verbally documenting sexual negotiations on audio tape in order to protect themselves against future problems ? What a flame douser ! Him : “Will you do X to me ?” Her : “No. I Don’t like that” Him : “Can I XX you ?” Her : “Maybe”
Him : “That’s not an answer.” Her : “Then go to shower. By yourself” Him : “But I am on fire for you, baby doll” Her : “Okay…but” Him : “So that is a yes ?” Her : “Maybe”
Decent translation? from Russian:
http://eastwest-review.com/rus/article/udivitelnye-priklyucheniya-kapitana-neo-v-blondinii-kto-i-pochemu-obvinyaet-sozdatelya-wikil
“It is easy to write off the whole story on the feminist police excesses and stupidity, the Pentagon released from liability and say: “This is the story of militant gender activism, has come down in Sweden to its climax……”
@ tomi: Och, tomi, I’ve been trying so hard not to laugh and to be good for admin’s sake, but you just finished me off.
admin:
“There does seem to be a particularly aggressive faction of feminists in Sweden and for those that think it has nothing to do with this case, there is evidence on AA’s blog to suggest that her feminist leanings may have been a lethal cocktail when combined with her hurt at having found out Assange slept with someone else.”
Yes and then you havent even included the debate in Sweden where Professor Leijonhufvud again and again wants to change rape-laws to only permit a certain kind of sexual acts regarldess of women consent or not.
“Det man skulle behöva överväga är om det kanske borde vara ett straffvärt beteende överhuvudtaget att bruka våld mot någon oberoende om personen är med på det eller inte”
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article488119.ab
“Maybe it’s possible to see why there is such a backlash from men like Erik in Sweden who feel that such feminists have gone too far.”
Radical feminists! Not feminists. Big difference! A socialist and a national socialist is not the same thing. A feminist and a radical feminists is not the same thing.
“However, some of your previous comments Erik weren’t aimed at extreme feminists – they were aimed at women in general saying for example that “women don’t earn as much as men because they’re not prepared as much” which is why you have been accused of out and out “women bashing” on here.”
That is a simple statement of empirical facts, not a value-judgement. Debating the issue is stupid. Take any job where your life is in danger. Wanna give a try on the likelyhood lots of women wanting that specific job cause it pays better?
In fact, pointing this out could be seen as malebashing, considering many would think taking such a job cause it pays better an act of stupidity.
“That said, let’s not go too much further down this road again. I can understand Erik is pissed-off with the kind of extreme-feminism that’s obviously evident in Swedish politics (even if they did only win 0-6% of the vote)”
The reason they only get 0,6% of the vote is cause Swedish politics have two sides and a lowest limit of 4% for every party for entry in parlament. Since the two sides (left-right) are of very equal strength 2% voting on FI could win the entire election for the other side.
Most people for that reason dare not vote on smaller parties even if they would like what they hear.
“although I still don’t think this case against Assange can be attributed simply to an extreme-feminist plot.”
Assange is not the first man in Sweden in this situation. He is just the first internationally known man in this situation. The risk for innocent to be convicted was raised by Swedens JK Göran Lambertz in 2006. (Resulting in a storm of criticism mostly from aforementioned radical feminist professor Leijonhufvud)
Here is the link to the swedish response from JK Göran Lambertz (JK is more or less the peoples lawyer in matters concerning the state and its departments)
http://www.dn.se/debatt/jag-riskerar-helt-medvetet-fortroendet-for-rattsvasendet-1.434036
Can anyone in Sweden give any insight as to whether and how this has influenced the election debate, and what the general opinions in Sweden seem to be? Have any politicians commented?
Are AA’s supporters just a very vocal minority, or are there a significant number of them?
Does JA have very vocal supporters? Who is loudest, his or JA’s?
How big an issue is this in Sweden? Do the Swedish people in general know or care about the reaction from the rest of the world?
If I may make a brief personal comment directly to you, admin: I must say that, for someone who has attracted a lot of contentious (if intelligent) international attention to his blog, you are a most mild-mannered and reasonable and good-humoured admin. Good for you. I have learned a lot from watching this discussion.
Could I also ask you about that beautiful pen in your banner? What is that pen, and do you have one?
georgiebc:
Sadly this doesnt influence the election debate at all. The debate has been mostly about economics and what to do about unemployment.
Let me explain the political positions in Sweden.
Since we have two clear sides, (left – right) who are very equal in strength, and a party needs to get at least 4% to get mandate in parlament. Most people dare not “waste” a vote on a smaller party outside the two sides with the risk the other political side wins the election and goverment.
Also, the nationalist and antiimmigration party Swedendemocrats (as the only smaller party close to clearing the 4% limit) are on neither side since nationalism and antiimmigration is politically incorrect.
The party most likely to rasise the Assange-issue is the Pirate Party and they are simply too far away from the 4% limit-
For instance, if the pirate party does get 1,5% of the votes that would normally befall the three leftwing-parties. This could win the entire election and goverment for the alliance of the rightwing-parties.
Basically the only real issues in the Swedish election are:
Which side wins the election?
Which parties clears the 4% limit?
Also, if Swedendemocrats does clear the 4% limit… that means it is very unlikely either right/left side will have a majority of the seats in the parlament. Thus a huge part of the debate has been about the Sweden Democrats. Every party in the parlament absolutely do NOT want them clearing the 4% limit. Specially not as “wavemasters”
Basically neither side is likely to discuss the Assange case
Interesting article in the Australian publication Crikey, quoting Geoffrey Robertson, an international human rights lawyer who I’m guessing is also Australian:
http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/09/14/we-should-stand-up-for-assange-geoffrey-robertson/
Robertson raises a possibility I hadn’t heard of before: that JA’s lawyers could take this case to the European Court of Human Rights. Robertson seems convinced that they would find the investigation has been abusive of JA and that Sweden would have to compensate him.
Go for it, Bjorn and Julian!
Great article skdadl. Sadly and predictably the comments are “yeah, that’ll happen.” “As if.”. So to sum up:
Governments haven’t mentioned this.
Serious media is completely ignoring it.
People are confident that nothing will be done as always.
Same as our reaction to Guantanamo and all the other human rights abuses. So what now, we go to Amnesty and politely fill out little postcards and watch them ignore us?
Also note, the article calls Assange naive. Judged even if innocent, as predicted.
@Erik thank you for your insights.
Well, georgiebc, you have to admit — that power nap in a public park in Stockholm (aka spook central in Europe), in the company of a kind of strange woman, when you are on the run from the Pentagon and the CIA, was maybe a touch ill-advised?
Endearing, though.
Sofia Wilen has the poorest CV and most untalented portfolio I have ever seen, I should thank her she made me feel confident about my own work
)
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:lj2Glv5-9TAJ:www2.wooloo.org/starpower000/s3UserCv.php+%22sofiawilen%40gmail.com%22&cd=1&hl=fr&ct=clnk&gl=fr
Interesting article in Counterpunch. I think this more clearly articulates some of the points that some of the Swedish guys have been trying to make on this thread:
http://www.counterpunch.org/shamir09142010.html
Sofia Wilen. I see that she was born in 1983. I read elsewhere that she was born September 17. I hope that’s correct. (Astrologer’s lament : not being 100% sure about birthdates ie : Julian’s as well, but I digress….) I won’t be baking her a cake this Friday. Anna should have checked Sofia’s portflio online before allowing her in to take pictures of Julian Assange, although the pony’s “hair do” in her portfolio is whimsical. I wish things would move along faster in Julian’s favour.
@skdadl, Thanks for the kind words. I’ve tried to welcome as much constructive debate on this issue as possible and keep this debate as open as possible while appealing for reason where need be. I don’t really believe in censorship – I believe in calmly refuting illogical claims with logic as I think that’s far more effective than trying to suppress someone. The Assange case has raised temperatures for all kinds of reasons leading to all kinds of wild theories but I firmly believe that if people keep as calm and rational as possible, we can get closer to the truth of what happened here. BTW, I’m ashamed to say the image of the pen is not mine – I “borrowed” it for this blog but if the owner is out there and objects I’ll change it. And no, I don’t have one like it but I do still believe in the power of the pen (or keyboard) if that doesn’t sound too pretentious.
@Erik, thanks for the insights into the Assange case and Swedish politics. For those that don’t know, the Swedish election is just 4 days away. It looks almost certain that the Center-Right Alliance under Reinfeldt will win again. This is somewhat off topic and I hoped to find the time to do a blog post about it actually but I don’t really see much difference if the Center-Left Social Democrats won (who until 4 years ago, held power in Sweden for something like 60 years!) because both are parties that follow the same neo-liberal politics that characterizes the Democrats and Republicans in the USA for example. It’s just that the Center-Right alliance are slightly more committed to them. But let’s not get into that here…
@skdadl, Thanks for the link. I was going to post that myself after WikiLeaks tweeted it. I think Assange would surely have strong grounds for going to the European Court considering the defamation he has suffered.
@anonymous, Thanks for the Counterpunch link. I’ve only had a brief read now but I urge everyone here to read it. I especially find interesting:
They provide no source for the CIA claim but it’s certainly a plausible one. It’s almost certain that the CIA have stepped-in at some stage to bully Sweden and bullying their secret service is more plausible than them bullying the prosecution service.
Honestly, is it at all surprising that the women initially didn’t want to pursue an investigation? You’re now insulting their CV and generally dragging their names through the mud. What if one of them really were raped and the other sexually coerced?
Reading this entire comment section, there is not a single theory proposed that takes their charges seriously. The fact is, none of us know what actually happened. Isn’t it possible that while Assange does amazing work in the sphere of politics/journalism, but really is morally lacking in other areas? I know that is hard to accept, but so was Polanski’s rape of a 13yearold. It could be that the charges are false, but if we’re going to speculate, why not cover all possibilities?
Some of the quotes posted from the Guardian article are illuminating:
“Both women reported that they had been involved in consensual sexual relationships with Assange, but each reported a separate non-consensual incident of a similar character in which Assange allegedly had sex with them without using a condom.”
This one alone shows that if the girls were after him for sleeping with a hero, as it were, that they had already gotten that over with by the time the non-consensual incident took place. Having sex with someone without using a condom isn’t rape, so for the charge to be taken seriously at all, isn’t it possible that he forced his condomless self on them somehow, in spite of the “no”? Just throwing it out there.
Thank you Anonymous for that voice of reason. So many people want to believe that their hero is innocent that they think they can make it so just by repeating it over and over again.
The discussion has been very much smearing those two women, Anna and Sofia. Their addresses and phone numbers have been made public for stalkers and angry nazies to use. They’ve been called all sorts of names and they’ve been accused of all sorts of crimes, of which rape, buying a prostitute and crimes against humanity are the most ridiculous, yet many nazies seem to believe them because they want to. It suits their agenda.
Every woman who’s been involved in this case has been smeared. Anna, Sofia, the three prosecutors, Birgitta Jonsdottir… It seems that people who see Julian Assange as their savior really hate everyone else, especially women and very especially feminist women.
Irrelevant phrases from Anna Ardin’s writings from four years ago have been used against her. And journalists across the globe repeat them like mindless parrots.
Nobody really knows what was in the two women’s report (except the three prosecutors, of which all saw there SOME crime!) because that is secret material and has been censored away from the leaked to the press reports. And yet posters and journalists claim the case is clear, nobody has been raped or sexually harassed, Julian is innocent and the women are to be blamed along with the Swedish system.
So far this has been a typical rape case or a case of sexual harassment. The victim who reports a crime is blamed and abused even worse than what the original crime was. That’s the reason why so few women report rape. It just doesn’t do anything good to them but only makes things worse.
Has there ever been a man accused of sexual harassment who’s said “yeah, you’re right, i did sexually harass that woman and now i want to know what i can do to make things better”? I’ve never heard of such a man, never. Instead they all start yelling “THAT’S A FUCKING LIE AND THAT WOMAN IS A LIAR! I’VE NEVER HARASSED ANYONE IN MY LIFE!” And all their loyal friends will come along and yell the same thing.
Anonymous:
“so for the charge to be taken seriously at all, isn’t it possible that he forced his condomless self on them somehow, in spite of the “no”? Just throwing it out there.”
Forced himself SOMEHOW? Excuse me but please explain that “somehow” in more detail please. But first read this sentence:
“han är inte våldsam och jag känner mig inte hotad av honom.”
(he is not violent and I do not feel threatened by him)
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article7652935.ab
Ohh and btw, the chief prosecutor Eva Finne still – after reading the transcripts – declared it was not a rape. Marianne Ny however did a political decision.
Well, the most obvious is forcing oneself on someone when they aren’t conscious. I can think of several films that feature non-violent rape, all pretty gruesome. I don’t want to get graphic with my ideas for what “somehow” could mean.
As for who saw it as a crime and who didn’t, since the case is being pursued, I imagine it will be up to the courts to decide this.
Ulla:
“The discussion has been very much smearing those two women, Anna and Sofia. Their addresses and phone numbers have been made public for stalkers and angry nazies to use.”
What the heck are “nazies”? Also in case you missed it, the womens phone numbers were public already. Any idiot could find them with google because the women themselves put them there.
“Every woman who’s been involved in this case has been smeared. Anna, Sofia, the three prosecutors, Birgitta Jonsdottir…”
Actually Eva Finne has off course NOT been smeared while Claes Borgström is clearly not a woman (although he does have a “woman of the year” title)
“It seems that people who see Julian Assange as their savior really hate everyone else, especially women and very especially feminist women.”
Actually several feminist women on Flashback expressed deepest disgust over the behavior of these two women.
“Irrelevant phrases from Anna Ardin’s writings from four years ago have been used against her.”
Her opinion that rape is a political tool for men is hardly irrelevant for a rape trial.
“Nobody really knows what was in the two women’s report (except the three prosecutors, of which all saw there SOME crime!)”
Actually, chief Prosecutor Eva Finne knows exactly what was in the two womens report. Her conclusion on this was a possible molestation (not sexual) for staying at her home longer than she wanted and nothing more.
“So far this has been a typical rape case or a case of sexual harassment.”
Well if you by “typical” means the kind of rape case that happened at Duke University where prosecutors saw a carreer opportunity – then I agree.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_lacrosse_case
“The victim who reports a crime is blamed and abused even worse than what the original crime was.”
Alleged victim! Also….defamation worse than actual rape? Thats a statement as ridicolous as it is false.
“That’s the reason why so few women report rape.”
Actually few women do not report rape. Lots of women report rape. Few of the accusations however has substance enough to go to trial.
“Has there ever been a man accused of sexual harassment who’s said “yeah, you’re right, i did sexually harass that woman and now i want to know what i can do to make things better”?”
1. Rape and sexual harassment is NOT The same thing.
2. You seem to have problem grasping the concept innocent until proven guilty!
“I’ve never heard of such a man, never. Instead they all start yelling “THAT’S A FUCKING LIE AND THAT WOMAN IS A LIAR! I’VE NEVER HARASSED ANYONE IN MY LIFE!” And all their loyal friends will come along and yell the same thing.”
Which clearly – given the lack of evidence – in most cases are true. Most harassment accusations are lies. But since there is hardly any risk making them even without ANY supporting evidence – the women involved will keep making them.
Ohh and btw.. regarding the Duke Case media coverage enjoy the sequel!
“a vast cabal of left-wing Duke professors who pronounced them guilty based on zero evidence; and of a politically driven prosecutor whose contempt for the legal niceties was so glaringly apparent that he ended up doing time himsel”
“Yet now, with Crystal Mangum hauled in for attempted murder of a boyfriend, arson, identity theft, communicating threats, damage to property, resisting an officer, misdemeanor child abuse – hell, everything but going after Tiger Woods with a driver – all that’s down the memory hole.”
http://bigjournalism.com/evbone/2010/02/23/duke-rape-case-accuser-arrested-for-attempted-murder-the-new-york-timess-emily-litella-moment/
Sorry to see that this dicussion is derailed so often. My own concern is, how the US could be so lucky.
They wanted something to crash the trust in Wikileaks. They got it easily this year. A whistleblower was identified, Assange is a raper now.
The whistleblower is a weak homosexual, waiting for being a woman. Assange is a money-hungry dictator, who arrives at friends doors with a rucksack and even can’t pay his ticket for the train.
A little too much stupidity at once. I am trying to understand, what happened, but right now, I don’t think, that the comments will get me anywhere.
I only can see, that the Pentagon would have won the lottery at least twice, if they had not answered so supidly themselves everytime they were asked.
@Erik Whoa!
“Most harassment accusations are lies.”
“Lots of women report rape. Few of the accusations however has substance enough to go to trial.”
WTF? I am not going to even ask you to substantiate these ridiculous claims–lest we all be subjected to another one of your overly long “scientific” expositions which invariably link to the work of some obscure academician or discredited study. (Wait, do you do that or is that Rick? Whatever, Rick/Erik–you sound like same person.)
The fact that you and people like you actually hold these views make me understand–not endorse, mind you–the current radicalized political climate in Sweden.
“You seem to have problem grasping the concept innocent until proven guilty!”
You seem to forget that there is a chance (and yes, at this point, probably a small one) that Assange is guilty.
How many times do the feminist women present have to say that they don’t hate other feminist women? Or, alternatively, that they don’t hate men?
Erik, thank you for the link to that statement (I believe that’s AA) admitting (from the beginning) that JA is not violent, not coercive, and no woman is in fear of him.
AA, Sofia, and Birgitta all did a lot of undisciplined talking in public early on, as did the prosecutors. Maybe they could now take responsibility for their own words, instead of snivelling at the reactions their undisciplined words have brought upon them.
Erik, that was Anna Ardin who said that “he is not violent and i don’t feel threatened by him”. She was correcting the false statements made by the Expressen sensational news headlines.
Anna Ardin did not report a rape but a sexual harassment. It was Sofia Wilen who apparently reported rape. We don’t know how she feels about the issue or if she’s afraid or not.
Anna Ardin hasn’t been in the public commenting the issue since. We don’t have any other info except that they stand behind their allegations. Julian Assange, on the other hand, has been almost daily giving interviews in the MSM. He has been given the say in the issue.
Erik, by nazies I mean those hate filled and angry (violent) people who are usually racist, sexist, homophobic etc.
@ulla and anonymous
May I add that most feminists around the world are more than a little horrified at having the violent and barbaric crime of rape co-opted for political and petty vendettas? Sweden is destroying its reputation of being either progressive or feminist.
A true feminist would never belittle the horror that a true rape victim has been through by equating it to regret that you slept with someone because he didn’t call you the next day or moved on to someone else. We have been fighting that idea for decades and Sweden is trying to roll the clock back to the 50′s when every woman who cried rape was accused of having a personal vendetta. If we have to go through this all over again, it will be the fault of your ridiculous and insulting dilution of the term.
What now shall we call real rape? Murder? Genocide?
Whether we are talking about rape or sexual harassment or whatever word, we are talking about something that wasn’t consensual sexual activity.
Were you there, Ulla?
Everyone commenting here believes in the basic principles of democracy, yes? Anyone accused of a crime is innocent until proved guilty in a court, yes?
No one has made legal complaints against AA or SW. They and the Swedish prosecutors’ office have made heavy claims against JA, and they have spread those claims through the tabloid press.
Guess who gets the benefit of the doubt from anyone who is a serious believer in democracy.
I don’t give a damn about the Swedish law or any law. Laws can be whatever. We can make a law that every raped woman must be stoned to death. Actually, there are laws like that. But not in Sweden. Apparently in Sweden it is a crime to rape and sexually or otherwise harass. So be it.
Ulla, are you Anna or Sofia? you wrote “we are talking about something that wasn’t consensual sexual activity”, what do you know of the real facts? were you there? do you know one of the alleged victim or Assange personally? no one should take the defense of assange or these girls without knowing the truth.
Correction:
We can make a law that every raped woman WHO TELLS ABOUT IT must be stoned to death.
And we can act like that, without any written law. We can really hate the one who tells the ugly truth to us.
Actually, in a democracy, laws can’t be “whatever.” They are supposed to be rooted in historical understanding of what has gone wrong in our societies in the past (revenge cycles, eg), and the best ways of avoiding those mistakes as we go on. See many bills, charters, and declarations of human rights for the short list — they’re all pretty much the same.
The question of what happens in cultures that Westerners have traumatized through colonial exploitation is separate, imho. They haven’t had the chances that you and I have had, Ulla.
But it is a truly sick society in which someone would be considered guilty just because he had been accused. That takes us back to the witch trials.
georgiebc, just wanted to agree briefly with what you have written above. As an aging feminist, I do not see that the return of sexual puritanism or sexist views of women’s sexuality are liberating to us at all. Like every woman (and I’m sure many men) I very much fear rape. I know that it has to do with power and anger rather than sex, and I fear it in the angry world I live in. But I sure don’t see any of that in this story, and I am sorry to see other feminists in positions of public responsibility devalue the concept of rape so disastrously by endorsing frivolous claims.
I’m also still not convinced that this isn’t politics. The Swedish intel peeps haven’t heard from the U.S. yet? Haven’t been told that all exchanges of intel stop unless they put pressure on Ms Ny? I just don’t buy that.
Where did Borgstom come from, anyway? Is he working for AA and SW pro bono?
@ georgiebc – some rationality and well written words of sanity, thanks. At least from me.
To anyone else who doesn’t appreciate what georgiebc expressed, here is another angle. What the hell were these two women doing in bed with him to begin with? What were they thinking if they were not trying to trap him one way or another?
This is not a case of old platonic friends sharing a bed for an evening. There was obviously sexual attraction with this man, so they sleep with him and have sex. Now suddenly this turns into a crime? Sounds more like stupidity or entrapment.
@Anonymous at 8:39pm For me, as a woman, my perception of Sofia’s rape accusation is colored by what I think *I* would do in a similar situation. And if I had been forced into having condomless sex with a man, I would not run out to buy him oatmeal and orange juice for breakfast, joke awkwardly about possible being pregnant, follow him to the train station on my bicycle, buy him a ticket, and ask me if he was going to call me again! Her behavior comes across as more “pathetic groupie” than “rape trauma sufferer.”
That said, I do think Julian was completely boneheaded if he did have sex with either of these women without a condom. Couple that with his lack of interpersonal skills and Swedish law, and you have a perfect storm waiting to happen.
@Anonymous 8.39pm,
The reason for this is that on the nights of the alleged crimes, Assange has been accused of rape and consensual sex at the same time by the women. Why would they do that if they want to be taken seriously? In addition, The Swedish public prosecution have accused him of rape (without even contacting him first), dropped it to molestation, then dropped it to non-sexual molestation and now back up to rape again. It’s no wonder neither the Swedish public prosecution service or the women are being taken particularly seriously by many people who suspect ulterior motives are at work.
@Ulla,
If a murderer was found to have written a blog post years ago called “How to murder someone” would you not consider it at least a little bit illuminating into the mind of the criminal in light of the crime? That’s why AA’s “Seven steps to legal revenge” has been repeated so widely across the net – not because journalists are parrots.
You imply that it is the women that are the victim here but you are just as bad as those you criticize for blaming them when you don’t consider what Assange has been put through. The man has been accused of “consensual-rape”, had his name leaked by the Swedish prosecutor to the media against their protocol, not even been contacted by police for days after the report and been labeled a rapist worldwide. Have you ever stopped to think that maybe he is a victim too?
Both sides of this debate feel passionately for one side or the other. However, a calm and collected look at the facts so far points to only one conclusion – that a man (or woman) cannot be accused of consensual sex and rape at the same time. It’s no wonder therefore that many are siding with Assange, regardless of his work for WikiLeaks. I’m perfectly willing to accept that Assange could be guilty of something but you don’t have to Inspector Clouseau to conclude that by definition, Assange cannot be a rapist if the sex was consensual.
I find it deeply ironic that you accuse of Assange of being the one who’s been consulted too much on this issue when the police didn’t even attempt to contact him for days (I’m not sure exactly how long it was) after the accusations took place. And when they did consult him, they didn’t even want to view his telephone activity which would have given the police crucial insights into his activities on the nights of the alleged crimes and his communications with the women. It is no wonder then that Assange has gone to the papers on a few occasions to get his version out when the police don’t seem to be interested in it.
Anonymous 10.35pm,
As Erik points out, the women said “he is not violent and I do not feel threatened by him” and they’ve also conceded that the sex was consensual. How does this then paint the picture that you’re implying that the women were violently raped while they were unconscious? ‘
GeorgieBC,
Agreed. Apart from the women. the public prosecution service and Assange, one of the biggest losers from this debacle is Sweden itself.
Julian Assange has not been accused of consensual sex.
Consensual sex is what the participants agree to do. Non-consensual sex means that there is no mutual agreement.
That something started as consensual and ended up as non-consensual is not something unheard of. Can a husband rape his wife? Yes, in some countries that is considered a crime. In other countries it is thought that the wife consented to any sexual activity when she married the man.
I can agree to talking to a man but that doesn’t mean that we have sex the way he wants. I can agree to kissing a man but that doesn’t mean that we have sex the way that he wants. I can agree to have sex with a man but that doesn’t mean we have sex the way that he wants and I don’t.
People have a right to say ‘no’ to any sexual activity at any time. That must be respected. Anything else is non-consensual sex.
Ulla:
“Erik, that was Anna Ardin who said that “he is not violent and i don’t feel threatened by him”. She was correcting the false statements made by the Expressen sensational news headlines.”
How would she know Expressen made false statements? She was not in the room with Sofia Wilen at Klara Närpolis (the police station). The only people who would know are the police themselves and Sofia Wilen.
“Anna Ardin did not report a rape but a sexual harassment.”
Not at all! Anna Ardin initially would not report anything, just show sisterly support for whatever Sofia Wilen wanted to talk about. Wilen on her part wanted to know whether Assange could be forced to take an HIV-test. However at Klara närpolis “something happened” and some of the officeras on duty decided whatever Wilen had told (in separate room) would be considered rape.
The weird thing however…. The questioning of Sofia Wilen was not over and the police doing the actual talking with Wilen was not allowed to communicate any conclusions.The transcripts from Klara Närpolis was then transported to Chief Prosecutor Eva Finnes vacation home, she cancelled the arrest order after reviewing those transcripts.
“It was Sofia Wilen who apparently reported rape.”
No it was not! It was the police themselves who decided whatever Sofia Wilen had told (before her questioning was even over) was to be called rape.
“We don’t know how she feels about the issue or if she’s afraid or not.”
Actually we do. We have a very good picture of how Sofia Wilen behaved after the alleged rape.
“Anna Ardin hasn’t been in the public commenting the issue since. We don’t have any other info except that they stand behind their allegations.”
Its not even THEIR allegations. In fact everyone BUT the two women called this a rape. Mostly the police and Claes Borgström did the actual allegations.
“Julian Assange, on the other hand, has been almost daily giving interviews in the MSM. He has been given the say in the issue.”
Actually thats not true. Most interviews from Assange was more or less without any consent from his side. The TV-interview was not pre.arranged, it was a setup (more or less an ambush) by Expressen where they more or less cornered him on the street.
“Erik, by nazies I mean those hate filled and angry (violent) people who are usually racist, sexist, homophobic etc.”
That would be nazis or nasties.
@Ulla,
I agree. But if the girls claim that Assange was non-violent and non-threatening throughout the entire episode, how could what started as consensual sex have turned ugly? Surely they would offer some resistance which would have been met by force from Assange. But as the women themselves say, no force was used.
@Erik, Thanks for the clarifications on the sequence of events regarding the reporting of the alleged crimes.
Ulla, it’s not true that Julian Assange has been giving “almost daily” interviews. Erik, it’s not true that we know what Sofia Wilen is thinking or feeling.
Sadly, I think it was game over for justice as soon as the allegations/suspicions were leaked to the press. Everyone’s perspective has been distorted, and many are trying to correct the perceived injustice by abusing the other side. The conduct of this investigation has been a disgrace from the beginning, and I hope Assange does take his case to the European Court of Human Rights. However, that does not mean that the blogosphere had the right to redress the damage done to him in the MSM by smearing the women involved, and certainly not by circulating their names, addresses, and photos of their houses. And Ardin’s blog post on Seven Steps to Legal Revenge is a compelling piece of circumstantial evidence, but it does not tell us exactly what happened on the night(s) she was with Assange.
If the dominant emergent narrative is to be believed, it appears that the “rape” “allegation” is a case of a non-violent sexual encounter which has been retroactively labelled rape by the police because Wilen believes that Assange didn’t wear a condom (which she maintains was a condition of sexual contact between them), and because he “refused” to assuage her fears of pregnancy or STDs (by ignoring her calls and refusing to get tested). So perhaps this entire affair can be summed up as a series of misunderstandings and miscommunications. Which leads me to wonder: has anyone raised the possibility that Julian Assange has Asperger’s syndrome? It would explain the apparent lack of empathy and social understanding he has exhibited (if the story we’ve pieced together is true). I’m not a doctor, and I don’t know Assange, so my opinion is doubly worthless, but if I’m right, then it seems cruel to pursue the man for a non-violent “crime” he may or may not have committed because of a medical condition.
OMG.. this is getting ridiculous now. Suggesting JA has Aspergers syndrome because he’s a normal male. Look at anytime during this tryst, either one of those women could have gotten up, put some clothes on and called the police if he was trying to force himself upon them.
If they more fond of condoms than human beings, then perhaps they should not put themselves into such vulnerable situatons with normal men unless they keep an ample supply under the bed.
This whole situation seems out of touch with reality.
But the story seems to be that he didn’t “force himself upon them” at all, but that Wilen didn’t realise that he didn’t use a condom until afterwards. We don’t know Assange’s side of the story.
@ Gem -
She didn’t realise it till after? Where did you read this? And what was she doing if this was a major priority of hers that she wouldn’t at least provide some means of awareness if not assistance..
for crying out loud.. this is even more ridiculous the longer it gets argued.. LOL
It’s one of the theories/rumours (out of many) that’s currently circulating. I’m not saying that that’s what happened. And I didn’t say that the responsibility for contraceptives was solely his, either.
So.. as far as I can tell Bad Bedroom Etiquette is at blame here..
http://www.dailynexus.com/2010-08-25/bedroom-etiquette-dummies/
Maybe! Lots of sensible advice in that link…
@admin. I have been shutting up for a while because this page has been mostly full of rantnings for a while. Still worth reading, but I have refrained from commenting until now.
You say to Ulla in one of the comments above: “However, a calm and collected look at the facts so far points to only one conclusion – that a man (or woman) cannot be accused of consensual sex and rape at the same time.”
That is true, of course, in any normal persons mind and in any normal society. But when it comes to sex, Sweden is not even near normal anymore!
The term “rape” has been completely watered down by feminazis and lost its normal connotation (Well, I know you don’t like that term, but what other word can I use for the extreme feminists in order to differentiate them from the “normal” ones… it seems to become more and more relevant to have a specific term for that despiccable breed, no?)
Anyway, “rape” is not what it used to be anymore. Pretty soon you can probably “cyber-rape” someone, or by a dirty look.
Just look at the insane prostitution law in Sweden, where two perfectly consenting adults would like to enter an agreement where they have sex and one party receives economic remuneration, in cash, rather than chocolates, flowers or drinks in a bar. Or a brush with fame, as with these two women and Assange. (They wanted fame, but lost face when they found out about each other’s existance in intimacy with JA. That’s all… Groupies, if he had been a rock star.)
If a man pays for sex it is considered a kind of automatic rape in Sweden, because the woman is not considered to have enough mental capacity to make up her own mind what to do with her body and why. Not the same with abortions, of course, a man has no say about the unborn child. (Notice, only if a MAN pays for sex with a woman, not gay sex or the opposite direction in a hetero situation, because men are “stronger” and “have all the power in society”.)
The feminazi rhetorics are systematically changing the very meaning of words. If we would do the opposite change of connotation we could possibly end up with (real) rape being called “surprise sex” or something.
It is just so totally sick, and sickening, and I doubt that non-Swedes are completely able to understand where the Swedish society is going with this, with people like Bodström, Ask, and others at the helm, and a whole cadre of supporters throughout the political and media establishment.
Anyone trying to oppose the politically correct agenda is immediately stigmatised as a rapist, child molester, or whatever the case may be.
I went to the Soviet Union while it still existed, and to other eastern bloc countries as well, and the feeling of helplessness in the face of oppression is getting closer in Sweden to how it once was in those places…
Pity us!
In one of the leaked statements we’ve read, one of the women is supposed to have said that she saw JA do … something … to a condom (or at least suspected he had); she told the other woman that; and the other woman said “Me too!”
I just don’t think that it would occur to most people to *do* anything to a condom. I can think, though, of one particular class of people to whom that might occur, either in fact or as a slanderous charge against a target, and many of them work in Langley VA or in DC.
I’ve read in several places now that SW “lives with” an American named Seth Benson. (There could be a single source for that, now oft repeated.) She also lived in the U.S. for a time — not that there’s anything wrong with that …
What did SW say to AA during that first call after the assignations? Where did Claes Borgstrom come from, and who is paying him?
@ Gem, from several comments I’ve heard JA make, he really doesn’t like being psychoanalysed. Well, who does? It must happen to him a lot though. It’s all too common that highly focused people who have little regard for the bourgeois proprieties are considered odd by more conventional types, when in fact they’re just smart and often unusually good, moral in ways that really count. There’s an old-fashioned expression, “absent-minded professor,” that seems to me more the truth about JA. In his interviews, he sounds if anything kind of courtly, chivalrous, which I wouldn’t say of the two garrulous women.
It wasn’t really an attempt to psychoanalyse him (Asperger’s isn’t a psychoanalytical condition, per se). But I am a bit embarrassed about speculating on the guy’s personal medical history – I wouldn’t like it either. I was just wondering if anyone else had spotted certain symptoms that suggest mild autism. Being ‘highly focused’ or ‘professorial’ is one of them. But again, I’m not a doctor and have never met the guy. I know that it’s a dead end for the discussion, because it simply isn’t possible for us to know unless we’re told by someone who would know. The idea just seems to me to fit one of the versions of events that has emerged.
I don’t think we have much evidence to suggest that Sofia Wilen is garrulous. There’s some evidence to suggest that Anna Ardin is. And I’m not accusing Julian Assange of ‘unchivalrous’ behaviour – I’m suggesting that his behaviour might have been misinterpreted as inconsiderate if the women didn’t fully understand him. Again, though, speculation.
Gem:
“Erik, it’s not true that we know what Sofia Wilen is thinking or feeling.”
Yes in a matter of saying we do. At least in the interpretation feelings are manifested as actions we know what she did the morning after. Like any good “rape victim” she went out to buy breakfast, come back to the “violent criminal”, ate with him and then like any normal “rape victim” she followed him to the train waving him off.
Then she tried to call him the next day. And when he did not answer, she started looking for him through official channels. Off course it would be normal action to call the press secretary and starting to discuss her clients private sex life on the phone. I wish somebody had tapped Ardins phone cause I cant wait to hear how on gods green earth that call entered that subject.
“If the dominant emergent narrative is to be believed, it appears that the “rape” “allegation” is a case of a non-violent sexual encounter which has been retroactively labelled rape by the police because Wilen believes that Assange didn’t wear a condom (which she maintains was a condition of sexual contact between them), and because he “refused” to assuage her fears of pregnancy or STDs (by ignoring her calls and refusing to get tested)”
Yes that sounds about right, if the guy doesnt answer his phone the day after – accuse him of being a rapist!
(That sentence made an older feminist woman on flashback cringe and support Assange)
Should any need of evidence of his bastardly acts appear. Point out he should have picked up the phone cause you had payed cinema, food and train thus you felt used.
(The aforementioned older feminist woman here smeared Sofia Wilen as a bimbo sabotaging womens rights)
however you missed the fact it become a police matter not untill Sofia Wilen called Anna Ardin one day later and most likely (in some REALLY weird version of “just girls talkin”) found out Assange slept with them both.
“So perhaps this entire affair can be summed up as a series of misunderstandings and miscommunications.”
Yes that sound about right – You know that rape accusation that was filed not once but TWICE against you?
We are sorry about that little thing. Just a misunderstanding, nothing serious.
“Which leads me to wonder: has anyone raised the possibility that Julian Assange has Asperger’s syndrome?”
Hahaha!
Well, if anyone had – the small matter about evicende supporting this is lacking.
“It would explain the apparent lack of empathy and social understanding he has exhibited”
There is nothing supporting the claim he lacks empathy and social understanding. However from several texts we can see clear signs Anna Ardin is completely lacking in the cultural sensitivity department.
“I don’t know Assange, so my opinion is doubly worthless, but if I’m right, then it seems cruel to pursue the man for a non-violent “crime” he may or may not have committed because of a medical condition.”
What the heck is the definition of a non-violent VIOLENT crime? Rape is not a violation of social norms, Rape is a violent crime defined as USING violence and/or threat forcing other people to sexual actions.
However LYING before, during or after a sexual act is not any kind of rape whatsoever.
Erik said:
Yes that sound about right – You know that rape accusation that was filed not once but TWICE against you?
We are sorry about that little thing. Just a misunderstanding, nothing serious.
I was referring to the ‘misunderstandings’ that may (or may not) have occurred between Assange and the women, not the police. I’ve said above that I think that this case has been handled disgracefully, and that Assange should take this to a higher authority, as Geoffrey Robertson suggested. I’m a little confused by the tone of your response, because we appear to agree on at least a few points.
I’ll respond to some of the comments here shortly but just thought I’d post this link to a Daily Beast story on the Pentagon’s hopes of charging WikiLeaks “leader” (erm, he’s not their leader he’s their spokesperson – there is no “leader” of WikiLeaks – they’re not Daleks from Dr Who) by gathering “evidence” on their “operations”. I could save them all a lot of time – you see, how it works is people concerned with abuses of power upload censored material to a website called WikiLeaks. Hard one that.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-09-12/pentagons-wikileaks-war-room-readies-for-new-document-dump/
lol @ gem and “mild autism”
… rly … cynically speaking …one wonders if maybe you or whoever else came up with this crap in the first place gets some “mild” paycheck from langeley:
“if rape doesn’t stick maybe we can make him some brain-addled idiot instead?”
(not my opinion on autistic people, mind, but it’s easy to see how the tabloids would spin this if it were to spread like the rape charges…)
@Anonymous
Well, I can’t prove that I’m NOT Brig Gen Robert A Carr – like Assange, I can’t prove a negative. I’m not, though.
“… rly … cynically speaking …one wonders if maybe”
Ironic that you think that this is a Pentagon-orchestrated smear campaign against Assange (and it could be – there’s no hard evidence of outside involvement at the moment, though), but your chosen mode of expression is the insinuating, indirect language of the smear.
I’m not really convinced that “autism” would take off as a “smear”, but even if the idea was circulated, it would take a few seconds for people to see that autism is often associated with extraordinarily intelligent people – people like Assange. Once again, though, I’m speculating about the whole thing.
@admin: that dailybeast story sounds as if the author has watched too many b-grade spy thrillers, lol. a “war room”!
@ulla and anonymous: over and over again in this thread the measured conclusion has been that the crime of “rape” in this case was clearly not an intuitive claim, but a bureaucratic one, assigned only in retrospect. If trumped up by the police then AA and SW are to be pitied as well, to a point. but their lawyer does not help.
thanks to all for the updates and comments; v. interesting.
Can anyone provide a summary of what the swedish prosecution service has been *doing* all this time? The last time I checked, they had interviewed assange in “secret location” at an unannounced time. Has there been any developments there? If not, how do they justify the delay?
I am trying to write a dissertation on a completely different subject from a period long past on a different continent, thus do not have to time to wade through flashback, which is like an addictive drug. i had to unplug the modem to meet my deadline. i am grateful for the news on this blog.
15th Sep 20:00 Update: Assange considers filing lawsuit against Swedish state
Full story here: http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article7789032.ab
Bad translation here:
I will reply to other comments soon.
@Gem:
It was Wilen herself who claimed it was rape from day one – not the police. She later conceded that the sex was consensual.
On the contrary, I think Assange has displayed a lot of empathy by appealing for people to respect both his and the women’s private lives since these allegations came out. He hasn’t once launched a personal attack on the women in the newspaper. Since the women themselves concede the sex was consensual and no aggression or violence was used, I don’t see any grounds for suspecting Assange may have some kind of empathy deficit problem such as Aspergers as you suggest.
I haven’t heard this claimed before. Is it possible for a woman not to realise this anyway?
@Celsius, Thanks for the comments. Perhaps we can just say “Extreme feminists” rather than “Feminazis”? I’m not sure civil liberties are at as low an ebb in Sweden as the Soviet Union but I’ve come to recognise there is an extreme feminist faction in Sweden who have a political standing unheard of in most other countries.
Thinking: This thread has delved well into the character and motivations of three players, the two women and JA, looking for probablities that they would behave a certain way. But we haven’t really looked at the character and motivations of the CIA, tho’ many have speculated they may be a player.
For me, one of the outstanding features of this case, if it was a smear, is that it does not attack JA’s character in any way that would bother most democratic countries. It has not accused him of violence, misleading the public or acting in a way contrary or even relevant to his position. It has however, got a great many people discussing, in great and salacious detail, his sex life.
As someone who has had to rely on US labelling of movies for restricted content, it has always fascinated me how marekaans don’t blink at a film with hundreds of gory deaths and mass bloody attacks, but the sight of a naked breast is strictly taboo. It has also amazed me how their media revels in details of people’s private lives. I honestly have no idea if our longstanding prime minister is married or has children, and I pray to all the gods that I never have to hear about his sex life. As we all know, that is not the case in the US, where the leader’s spouse is given an actual title, in caps, and the sex lives of all politicians are carefully watched (not to mention the obsession with the entertainment industry’s private lives).
I know nothing of how the Swedish people treat their public figures, but I think to blame most countries for a smear that actually does nothing to discredit the man’s ability to do his job seems a bit unlikely. However, to me, this has the hallmarks of the US all over it.
The UK may have a similar private life obsession, but even in the UK, I think the public figure would have to do more than be single and have sex to be smeared, no? Does this happen in Sweden? Thoughts from reading comments on US media that are labelling JA a ‘perv’ and a ‘sicko’ … for having sex … the same people who feel 1 million dead in Iraq is not sick at all …
@georgiebc
As a foreign national who lives in the U.S., I can assure you that some “marekaans” do blink.
I am a little sick at the lack of nuance when it comes to attacking America. The UK is bitch number #1 when it comes doing America’s dirty business–followed by Canada, Australia, and the rest of the English-speaking world.
@georgiebc
…also, slagging off America, tarring all Americans with the same brush, but all the while happily using WordPress, Google, Wikipedia, Twitter–bit hypocritical, no?
@admin
Well, it wouldn’t mean that he was devoid of empathy – I agree that he comes across as someone who cares deeply about the welfare of others. Hence Wikileaks. It’d just mean that he might have some difficulty within his interpersonal relationships. But if it’s never been mentioned in interviews or profiles of him, then there’s no evidence, really.
As for the not-realising-about-the-condom thing, it’s…theoretically not impossible, I suppose? I honestly can’t think of a possible explanation for this whole saga that isn’t at least slightly bizarre.
The Pentagon seems to be going for a “Catch Me If You Can” dynamic in that Daily Beast article, trying to present Carr as an equal force to Assange, and the Information Review Task Force as a match for Wikileaks. Hard to tell if that’s really the case, or mere propaganda. I can’t take the Daily Beast seriously, not only for the Birgitta Jonsdottir thing, but because of Tunku Varadarajan’s thoroughly nasty piece of character assassination, in an article that predates the “rape” reports.
@Anonymous Answered on my blog.
It is interesting that no one from Sweden has reacted violently to the actual genuine Sweden bashing that has occurred on this thread. Sweden is still an open democracy with free speech apparently.
It’s horrible when people have to think twice about saying something negative in a general sense about the (any) government. I have dealt with enough Neocons to know that they are not reasonable people. The “element of fear” in the “run up” to to the Iraq war was something that I have never experienced before.
The mistrust, and paranoia still remain to a great degree in the U.S. I asked an “all war all the time” veteran “Is the Military GOD now ?” and walked away from him before he could say something about freedoms, bloodletting, and the constitution. I didn’t dare mention Bradley Manning, or Wikileaks. I didn’t want to hear him telling me that I am an ingrate. My friends all support Bradley, Wikileaks, and Julian, of course.
Well handled, georgiebc. Anon, I spend a lot of time every day talking to wonderful Americans online, and they seem as distressed as many of the rest of us are at what has happened to their constitution even (maybe especially) under this president. There’s a lot of mutual teasing goes on between Merkins and Canucks, partly because we’re sort of stuck with each other, but I think it is good for both sides. I realize you were asking that not all Merkins be painted with the same brush, and I’m sure we all get that, but some of it comes with the territoire, eh?
In Bradley Manning news, Michael Moore and Daniel Ellsberg are organizing demonstrations this weekend in support of Manning: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/15/bradley-manning-campaign-michael-moore
If you click through to Moore’s site from the Guardian link, you can find the list of cities where demos are planned. Anyone in or near Toronto: Sunday at noon across from the U.S. consulate on University Avenue.
Anymous:
“It is interesting that no one from Sweden has reacted violently to the actual genuine Sweden bashing that has occurred on this thread. Sweden is still an open democracy with free speech apparently.”
Actually. Sweden is – regarding this subject – completely backwards. Sweden bashing is normal while praising Sweden can be dangerous for carreers. You see of you praise Sweden it could be considered you think sweden is better than someone else – which some beurocrats think is racist.
GeorgieBC:
It’s a combination of two things. One is because it’s an Anglo-Saxon thing – the USA and UK for example are more puritanical about sex than Latin countries for example. But most importantly, the liberal media serve powerful interests and it is in their interests to protect that power. Therefore, it is in their interest to encourage a culture where people judge someone on their sexual misdemeanors above their work. Assange has done a lot to further the scope of freedom of information and human rights but the media has to try and deflect attention away from that and judge them on sexual grounds. I recommend a book by Joan Smith called Moralities for more on this as she says it much better:
Moralities: How to End the Abuse of Money and Power in the 21st Century
Anonymous:
I agree. Powerful interests abuse power whatever the country. I guess as the most powerful of them all, the US is the number one target (and I might add, it’s the powerful elite that are to blame, not the American people) for critics but let’s not get into that here.
@Gem, What exactly happened with the condom is the big mystery. It’s sad that there’s so much speculation over such a private detail but since it’s key to this case, it is important. Was the condom on properly? Did it break? Did he wear one? I’m starting to think maybe they simply didn’t have one, she agreed to sex without it and then regretted it afterward either out of fear of infection or revenge at finding out he’d slept with someone else. Since he wasn’t aggressive and it’s hard to imagine a women wouldn’t realise if a man was wearing one or not, I think it’s the most likely explanation.
@”Sweden bashing”, I don’t see much “Sweden” bashing going on here but there has been a lot of criticism of the prosecution service and extreme feminist movement. But on that point – Swedes are generally “shy” when it comes to either praise of themselves or country. Some of this can be attributed to what they call Jantelagen (Tall Poppy Syndrome) – a cultural feature common in Nordic countries where no one is supposed to be better than anyone else and to boast is “bad”. I don’t think Swedes are vehemently patriotic but they are generally proud in a modest way of Sweden and have an unbelievable amount of trust in their government and their system. A trust that I think is increasingly being abused and blatantly clear in the increasingly nasty Swedish election campaign where politicians are accusing others of being “communist” and privatizing and dismantling of the once solid Swedish welfare state is being sold to them as in their interests. Swedish politicians are going the same way as everywhere else – self serving careerists that have little concern for Swedish people, and only care about their own career advancements and those of private power.
“– it’s hard to imagine a women wouldn’t realise if a man was wearing one or not –”
No it isn’t hard to imagine at all, if you’re a woman. A woman doesn’t feel the condom, usually. It is really difficult to know if there is a condom or not, especially if you weren’t looking all the time. It is very easy for a man to lie about wearing one and not wear it, especially if the lights are out so that it’s difficult to see. A man can easily fake it.
And there are men who fake it, because for a man it feels different with or without a condom. There are men who don’t like condoms. There are men who joke about throwing away the condom in the middle of sex so that it feels better for them – never mind the lady who’s being fucked and who has to live with the possible consequences.
@Ulla, I’m not a woman so I can’t really comment further although a few women I’ve asked about this claim that they can usually tell a difference. Maybe it depends on the woman.
Maybe I am from a different world, but what does a condom have to do with rape? Rape is not agreeing to sex and being forced into having it. What has a condom got to do with any of this?
And once you get to believing you can create classes of “rape”, then a pandora’s box can be opened and you are back to the world that persecuted others like Oscar Wilde.. What kind of thinking are all of you accepting here as normal is beyond me.
Guess I’m too American to believe that a culture and a language can be used to such a degee to cause such mass conformity with ideas that border on insanity..
But then again, we have Sarah Palin.. sigh.
@Tomi, It’s a good point. At the end of the day, it seems like she consented to the sex and says no aggression was used therefore rape is impossible. If he did it without a condom secretly without her consent then it would be molestation. I think Expressen or Aftonbladet asked Assange if he’d used some kind of “sexual psychological warfare” to get her into bed “against her will” instead. Understandably, Assange said he had no idea what it even meant or was.
@ Ulla: “the lady who’s being fucked” — Lord, what a grim way to think about sex. Women are passive sex objects? Women have no agency?
I certainly recognize that most women can be physically overpowered, but we’re pretty sure that did not happen in this case. Who submits passively in the dark to a partner she hasn’t even looked at, and none of whose actions she has observed or felt? I suppose that could happen, but I don’t know any feminists who’d behave that way, and it sure sounds like a miserable view of what sex and/or love are all about.
@skdadl Thanks for saying it for me. Also, if the poor woman is the one who has to live with the consequences (men get std’s too, you know), you’d think she’d be a little more proactive about having condoms and getting one on him.
@admin Thanks for your insights. It’s interesting that Joan Smith seems to be making the point that this does not happen any more, and my view was that it still seemed a likely thing for the CIA to do or exploit. My question was: what is the opinion of others here? Is that still a common tactic to discredit a public person? In the US? In Sweden?
It makes the CIA seem like a pack of giggling teenage boys – but it actually seems likely to me. Especially in light of the fact that it seems to be working in some quarters, ie. he is being called stupid, naive, ‘perv’, whatever … just for having sex. (Of course if he didn’t have sex he would be obviously a deviant pervert of some sort …)
I understand there is absolutely no evidence for suspecting the CIA. I just felt that as long as we were analyzing characters …
sorry if i missed it, but i’d still appreciate hearing what the prosecution service is *doing* all this time.
Assange has not been charged, right, so the “investigation” of rape is still ongoing? If so, how on earth are they explaining the delay?
Perhaps they are researching condom-tampering techniques to see if they qualify as rape?
Two things about the CIA, one of them an insight from JA himself that I believe too:
1. Breaking the law — if by law we mean international law built up since WWII — is the very reason for existence of most of our “intelligence” agencies. Breaking the law is what they do. It’s their business. That’s the CIA, DIA, NSA, CSIS, MI5/6, the full alphabet soup of intel agencies. They’re all crooks and liars, and many are war criminals.
2. Graham Greene wrote the book on the CIA, the so-called “brightest and best,” in The Quiet American (1955). Greene, himself a spook, knew what he was talking about. He described the typical overprivileged golden-boy graduate of the Ivy League with a vast sense of entitlement who believes he can save the world by clomping about everybody else’s country and imposing himself on it. They are incurably stupid. And yes, they’re probably giggly frat boys into the bargain.
@ashasekh. I agree that it is really funny that nothing happens. What else is there to investigate? There can hardly be any technical evidence, I have not heard of any such things going on. So they are left with the people involded, interviwe them and get done with it! What is keeping them from acting?
I am kind of guessing that they are beginning to figure out that they have painted themself into a corner and are buying time to see if they can find a way to get out of all this without loosing face even more.
There is also an election coming up shortly and the femijihadist movement may not want to have any questioning of their dogma at this point.
I am not one who thinks any spooks were involved to create this mess, but I would not be surprised if they wold like to see it drag out as long as possible. Who knows what strings have been pulled?
I agree that it would be a good move by JA to sue the state. Counter attack! The people who are guilty in the prosecutors office will never be punished personally. They are too well protected. But the state has the ultimate responsibility and has to answer a court case brought against it. It is also better form to go after the state rather than individuals.
The longer the process drags out, the higher the damages will be. Maybe the whole WikiLeaks budget for a long time can be financed by the Swedish government? I would love that!
There is nothing unusual that a legal process takes time, months or years. You are being very impatient with your demands of a quicker process.
@ Ulla, the only time investigations without charges take this long is when the police still aren’t sure whodunnit. In this case, there is very little detective work required. There are only three people involved (well, unless someone is investigating the women’s backgrounds), all available to be interviewed easily. Physical evidence has been offered and rejected (JA’s phone). There can’t be any mystery left for the prosecutors.
The political point of not laying charges is that Hurtig and JA can’t see the evidence against him until he is charged. So for JA and the rest of the world, there’s a mystery, but not for the prosecutors, the very expensive Mr Borgstrom, or the two women complainants, who are somehow, mysteriously, able to afford the very expensive Mr Borgstrom.
Wow. I hope that Hurtig sues both in Sweden and in the European court. This is approaching sadism.
All I can say is that Americans really don’t have a clue about Northern European culture or procedures… Not even a month has passed and people think this should have been in court already -LOL!! Well, let me tell you this: American movies give you a very wrong impression of things – you shouldn’t believe them and you definitely shouldn’t think that that’s the way things are in every place of this planet!
It seems like you’re asking that mr Julian Assange should be treated differently because of his international celebrity status? Are you asking that he should be treated differently and go first in line just because he’s an international celebrity? Well, it just doesn’t work that way in Sweden, the country where EQUALITY is indeed official doctrine.
There are obviously people who don’t like that doctrine. There are interest groups who would prefer other kinds of laws and official doctrines.
Yeah, if equality was their offical doctrine, the story would have not appeared on media first before Assange was officially told the investigation. The names of so called victims were protected but not Assange’s name who can also be a victim if not guilty
@ Ulla, I did not say it should be “in court,” which I know can take a very long time. I said that the decision whether to charge or not, which is highly significant, should have been made by now.
I am NOT an American (as you’d know if you’d read this entire thread), and you have no idea what I know about European law. You don’t seem to get the basic distinctions among investigation, charges, and trials. Please try to read for comprehension.
If Assange is not charged, (1) he and his lawyer can’t see the evidence against him, and (2) he can’t go anywhere, because if he does and he is then charged, an international warrant is then likely, which makes it possible for the Merkins to swoop in on him.
How much revenge do you actually want, Ulla? How bitter are you?
Kara, normally all the people involved would have remained their privacy and all of the things would have been kept secret. That’s the normal procedure. For some reason, unknown to us so far, the secret information was leaked into Expressen.
@ Ulla
What I’m beginning to understand about Sweden is that sex seems to have become your national sport. Of course anytime a sport is nationalised, there are rules to be established, playing fields designated, equipment authorised and players of course.
Skdadl wrote:
“If Assange is not charged, (1) he and his lawyer can’t see the evidence against him, and (2) he can’t go anywhere, because if he does and he is then charged, an international warrant is then likely, which makes it possible for the Merkins to swoop in on him.”
Yes, this is an interesting case as there is indeed a foreigner and a well-known “criminal” in the eyes of the US Government involved in this case. It is interesting to me how the Swedish government is gonna handle this case, if they’re gonna handle it at all, and not just sweep it under the garment as quickly as possible because of international pressure.
“How much revenge do you actually want, Ulla? How bitter are you?”
You’ve misunderstood my intentions totally. I am not against Wikileaks or Julian Assange. I am not on somebody’s side. I refuse to take sides. I don’t side with aqnyone. I’m only interested in TRUTH.
Tomi, I am not Swedish. I am no nationalist either.
@ Ulla, you made this claim about a country that you don’t belong to or have no “nationalist” interest in?
“Well, it just doesn’t work that way in Sweden, the country where EQUALITY is indeed official doctrine.”
Would you explain then your position about wanting the TRUTH?
In what world of ideas you live does a condom matter with regard to rape. Or a man’s liberty can be taken without just cause?
@ Ulla, JA is NOT a “criminal” in the eyes of the U.S. Some of their huffer-puffers make noises about figuring out how to label him one, and of course they are very good lately at making up crazy laws whenever they need them, but JA is not officially a “criminal” anywhere so far as I know.
You must learn to use language more carefully.
Tomi wrote: “Would you explain then your position about wanting the TRUTH?
In what world of ideas you live does a condom matter with regard to rape. Or a man’s liberty can be taken without just cause?”
I don’t know if condom matters or not in this case. I don’t know anything about this case. The things relevant in this case are still in secrecy. Nobody knows them, or at least none of us know them.
I don’t trust what’s in the papers. I don’t trust what the government tells us. I don’t trust the public opinion. I have a very good reason not to trust a number of things.
Skdadl wrote: “JA is NOT a “criminal” in the eyes of the U.S.”
In fact, if we believe at all the DailyBeast article about 120 fed agents on WL 24/7 and all that, then we must conclude that the US Government sees the WL issue as a criminal offence. No surprise.
@ Ulla,
When you cheapen values by doing lip service to the idiocy claimed by equating condoms with rape, I would think the fist place to gain trust would be within.
Tomi wrote: “@ Ulla, When you cheapen values by doing lip service to the idiocy claimed by equating condoms with rape, I would think the fist place to gain trust would be within.”
Sorry tomi, didn’t understand a word of this sentence. I haven’t claimed a thing about condoms and rape or whatever. Please stick to the facts, will you.
@Ulla, in fact the right to a speedy trial is covered in the European Convention of Human Rights:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_6_of_the_European_Convention_on_Human_Rights
(sorry to cite wikipedia but i haven’t the time to pursue a more “official” source)
while of course the definition of “a reasonable time” will vary depending on the nature of the crime and the location, I would guess that is one further reason why the arrest warrant (“in absentia”) may have been revoked: to buy the prosecution service more time to figure out how they were going to spin this whole mess.
Now that the whole world is watching, I sure, as others have mentioned above, that one of their primary objectives is to save face–not only of their own office, but of Swedish justice generally. but the longer they take, the worse they look, in my view.
@ Ulla, the Pentagon DIA are not “federal agents.” They are members of the military. Soldiers or civilian employees of the U.S. military, y’know?
In the U.S. “federal agents” means the FBI, the DEA, the IRS, that sort of thing.
It is more than apparent that many U.S. pomposities do not like JA, but none of them so far has figured out how to label what he and WL do as “criminal.” You must watch your language. A “crime” is a specific category, and JA has not committed one.
And no, I do not hold the Daily Beast in high regard, although I’m sure those military peeps are all working away, trying to catch up to us.
Another statement on Cryptome–
Assange Justice Delayed Is Justice Denied
http://cryptome.org/0002/assange-denied.htm
The second half of this program may be of interest:
“Internet Free Speech under attack from governments : A special report by Freedom of Information campaigner , Heather Brooke”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00tnvn8/The_World_Tonight_16_09_2010/
If you are outside the UK perhaps you can access via a proxy server.
I totally agree with you ashasekh (at 8:21). You say: “while of course the definition of “a reasonable time” will vary depending on the nature of the crime and the location”. That is true, and would like to add, “and depending on how much they fu*ked up in the beginning of the process”. If they really wanted to regain some kind of respect, they should do their best to limit the damages to JA and get their thumbs out of their asses and bloody well get done with this!
By dragging this out they are adding more and more insult to injury and should be made to pay for it. As I said before, I hope WikiLeaks get their financing for years to come from the Swedish government.
@ exile: thanks for the link. (The BBC is not blocked in Canada anyway. Some UK sites are, I think for contract reasons, but BBC is fine.) Interesting report from Brooke.
If this condom thing is true, I’m wondering why didn’t the women use a femidom (female condom).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_condom
@ashasekh
No one knows what the prosecution service is doing in its internal investigation as it’s obviously confidential (they’ve mysteriously managed to plug their leaking of names and reports now obviously
) As far as I can see it should be a very simple investigation. Since the women both claim sex was consensual and no aggression was used, the rape charge should be thrown out immediately. The only question they need to investigate is was there something “strange” that happened with the condom during the sex with SW in which case they could pursue a molestation charge. Since it is impossible to prove anything either way, I don’t see how this investigation can proceed any further. Without any kind of scientific or biological evidence, who the hell can anyone prove what did or did not happen with a condom during sex? I agree with Celsius that the prosecution service have realised they’ve really screwed up here, the whole world is watching, Sweden and Swedish justice is under the microscope etc. My guess is that they will announce something shortly after the Swedish election results are released on Monday so try and drown-out attention on it. If not, they’ll just drag it out until Assange’s application for residency is rendered impossible. Assange should get someone else from WikiLeaks to make the application for him instead if that’s the case.
@Ulla, I repeat again, there’s nothing complicated to investigate here. Something did or didn’t happen with a condom. It’s virtually impossible to prove what happened. It’s Assange’s word against SW and SW’s word against Assange. All we know is that a rape definitely did not take place so why the public prosecution are pursuing rape is a complete mystery to anyone with even a basic understanding of this case and sexual relations in general.
Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights:
“1. In the determination of his civil rights and obligations or of any criminal charge against him, everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial tribunal established by law. Judgement shall be pronounced publicly but the press and public may be excluded from all or part of the trial in the interest of morals, public order or national security in a democratic society, where the interests of juveniles or the protection of the private life of the parties so require, or the extent strictly necessary in the opinion of the court in special circumstances where publicity would prejudice the interests of justice.
2. Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law.
3. Everyone charged with a criminal offence has the following minimum rights:
(a) to be informed promptly, in a language which he understands and in detail, of the nature and cause of the accusation against him;
(b) to have adequate time and the facilities for the preparation of his defence;
(c) to defend himself in person or through legal assistance of his own choosing or, if he has not sufficient means to pay for legal assistance, to be given it free when the interests of justice so require;
(d) to examine or have examined witnesses against him and to obtain the attendance and examination of witnesses on his behalf under the same conditions as witnesses against him;
(e) to have the free assistance of an interpreter if he cannot understand or speak the language used in court.”
Well that one was violated instantly. The public prosecution informed the newspapers before Assange.
But they have never “charged” him. That’s their weasel tactic. They just “investigate” ostentatiously.
(My apologies to weasels, whom I quite like.)
Here are some interesting key-case law issues by the European Court itself.
Very important in this case:
“The concept of “charge” has to be understood within the meaning of the Convention. It may thus be defined as “the official notification given to an individual by the competent authority of an allegation that he has committed a criminal offence”, a definition that also corresponds to the test whether “the situation of the [suspect] has been substantially affected” (see, for example, Deweer v. Belgium, judgment of 27 February 1980, Series A no. 35, p. 22, § 42, and p. 24, § 46, and Eckle v. Germany, judgment of 15 July 1982, Series A no. 51, p. 33, § 73).”
It’s a PDF file (6 pages):
http://www.echr.coe.int/NR/rdonlyres/B4F32DE3-8D21-403C-87D6-22A2F0FC34B3/0/COURT_n1946214_v2_Key_caselaw_issues__Article_6__Notion_of__criminal__charge2.pdf
(Feel like Assange’s lawyer right now…)
Well, think of a classic whodunnit case: a murder, where the perp is unknown at first. While the investigation is going on, a number of innocent people may end up as suspects and may live under a cloud of suspicion for a long time. They aren’t “charged”; they just know — and sometimes the public know — that they are suspects (because the police keep asking them funny questions).
Horribly unfair though that situation is to the innocent, we can all see why it happens when there’s a real mystery.
The mystery here, though, is that there’s no mystery, not on the surface of things. This isn’t a whodunnit (unless we’re wondering about who’s paying Borgstrom). There just isn’t much to investigate, not in terms of charging JA with anything.
@ admin. “My guess is that they will announce something shortly after the Swedish election results are released on Monday so try and drown-out attention on it.”
Election? Sweden? The ELECTION is in Afghanistan…
Kidding! You may be right, and we shall soon see. But I am afraid that they are too stupid to do anything other than run around like headless chicken wondering who is going to do what.
But the world at large will not care much about the election in… in … what did you say? Sweden? … Naaah! That election is not important to CNN et. al., because it has no bearing on American wars and who wins doesn’t matter, they are all in pocket already anyway.
@Sidd, In the eyes of the European Court then, it’s correct to say that Assange is “charged” with rape although whenever I hear hear “charged” in the press, I assume it means the person has been convicted of the crime. It’s better just to say “being investigated” probably. But as skadal say, “investigating” someone is a weasel tactic that gets you out of having to comply with any laws on how you’re supposed to “charge” someone with a crime. It’s all highly unusual. I wonder if anything has ever happened in Sweden like it before…You should be Assange’s lawyer Sidd as you say
– I really can´t see how you could do a worse job than all those involved so far!
Can JA only file against the state if he was innocent of all charges? Does he have these rights (anonymity, speedy trial) even if he is found guilty of something?
That wasn’t worded well. Of course he has those rights. But does he still have the right to sue the state for them? Or does it hurt his chances of his case being heard or found in his favour? Wondering because his lawyer keeps not wanting to talk about that until the charges disappear. Or maybe he wants to use a potential lawsuit as a negotiating tool?
Yeap, admin,
and now that I said it here in public, they won’t get rid of it anymore.
@ georgiebc. I think Assange should sue the state BEFORE the trial against him. In my opinion it doesn’t matter if he is guilty or not. The state cannot meter out a punishment of shame before a trial, that is medieval. It is also good tactics to counter attack in a situation when you don’t even know what you are defending yourself against. Shift the focus a bit and show confidence. It would definitely be a counterweight in the media war.
This has to be a lesson to all, that whilst one has a sex drive, and run any controversial organisation such as Assange’s, one leaves oneself open to such attacks by the fervent enemies of a fair world, and truth.
Waaay back up there near the top of the thread, there was an item about AA running for something in this upcoming Swedish election – in Stockholm, I think it said. I haven’t got time to find it right now, but is that still the situation? Is she, in fact, running in this election, as was stated earlier, or does she have anything to do with it? Do any of the prosecutors? Is this what this is about? I’m sorry, but I find Swedish politics a little difficult to comprehend …
Whatistheword, there is a search option in this election site; just write whatever name you want in the upper right corner and click “Sök”.
http://www.val.se/
AA has indeed been a candidate in 2006 and is one now. Anyway, I can’t see how this is relevant to this discussion.
*boggle* Ulla, you can’t see how this is relevant to this discussion? Really? Are we talking about the same AA here – the one who is the co-accuser of Mr Assange? I would think that was fairly relevant, actually, one of the accusers running for public office … but maybe I’m being too Australian here.
@ Ulla. You kidding me? The relevance is that because she is running, all her friends in higher places will make sure that everything is kept quiet and nothing happens until after the election. Maybe not because of her so much, but because of the party.
But in a way, it could be a good sign. They know the case is shit, so they don’t want it to hit the fan just yet…
Anyway, for the non-Swedes, she is running for a seat in “kommunfullmaktige” in Stockholm. It is the local government of the city of Stockholm and she is running in one of the boroughs (valkrets) of Stockholm. The result from there will eventually be combined into the city government together with the other boroughs.
She is on place 12 of 34 nominees from the Social Democratic Party. I don’t know how big chances that will give her to be elected. People who just pick that ballot have accepted the party nomination as is. You can also favor one person over the others or cross over the ones you don’t like.
The ballot with her name can be found in facsimile here:
http://www.val.se/val/val2010/valsedlar/K/kommun/01/80/valsedlar.html
Just found this:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hKOz-WWZYF0Nx_bTAuxsTv9mCxVQ
Short translation (I left out the parts, which only explain the circumstances again):
“The arrest warrant of the Swedish judiciary against the co-founder of the investigative Web site Wikileaks, Julian Assange, has been canceled, according to his lawyer. The prosecutor of Stockholm had informed him, lawyer Bjorn Hurtig told on Saturday to the news agency AFP. Thus Assange could leave Sweden, although the judiciary further investigations against him. Assange was accused in August by a woman of rape, another accused him of harassment.
[…]
Assange had affirmed to remain in Sweden to prove his innocence. According to his lawyer, he still has received no date for a hearing. From Swedish judicial sources it was said that an alleged victim had been heard on Friday. The survey of the second woman was to take place on Monday.
[…]”
(It’s a google translation with some editing of myself to avoid sentences like “The survey’s second wife was to take place on Monday.”)
‘The survey’s second wife … ‘ *grin* Thanks for that, Sidd Reader – I think that will keep me amused for some time to come. And it makes as much sense as some of the other stuff that’s been written about this case.
This news item: it seems to be saying that the case is being dropped, but not dropped, so I am confused. And who, in this labyrinth of shadows, is ‘the prosecutor of Stockholm’ who informed Mr Assange’s lawyer that he is no longer going to be arrested, but only investigated? It sounds like more prevarication and sleight of hand, and less like Mr Assange is going to get anything like a fair hearing, or even be heard at all, which as far as I’m aware, is still the case – no one has actually had the courtesy to tell him the charges against him, or hear his evidence, and now they want him to run away from Sweden so they can ‘investigate’ him in peace, blackening his name all the while? What a joke.
Celsius, thanks. I had a bad moment there when Ulla responded as she did. Was I being a paranoid conspiracy theorist? Was I being way too cynical? I don’t think so …
A bit of news from Le Monde: Hurtig says that JA has been informed that he is not the object of an arrest warrant, which Hurtig says means that JA is therefore free to travel. [Well: we've wondered about that before.]
More interesting, perhaps, is this paragraph:
An inquiry is nevertheless underway, but JA hasn’t been informed of any date for an [interview? hearing?], said his Swedish lawyer. An [interview] of one alleged victim took place on Friday, while another is scheduled for Monday — that from “a source close to the case.”
[Sorry: not sure how the French use of "audition" translates into Swedish legal categories, given, y'know, Swedish legal categories.]
So: one of the women gave evidence yesterday and the other will on Monday. That’s news. I guess. I’m not sure I’d be leaving Sweden under those circs.
http://www.lemonde.fr/technologies/article/2010/09/18/wikileaks-pas-de-mandat-d-arret-contre-julian-assange_1412830_651865.html#xtor=RSS-3208001?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
I’m pretty sure leaving Sweden is what they want him to do.
Heh — sorry, Sidd Reader — we cross-posted, but the same interesting detail.
If this weren’t so serious, it would be very … *Alice in Wonderland*. The Swedish prosecutors, collectively, could play the Red Queen: ‘Off with his head!’
Leaving Sweden is also what the Pentagon DIA and the CIA want him to do, and they will have let Swedish intel peeps know that in no uncertain terms.
And this is all in service of AA’s little political career? Ye gods and little fishes.
Yeah about the little fishes. Some of them have a voracious ambition to be, you know, bigger fishes, and they aren’t too particular about who gets massacred to achieve that end …
Yes, “une audition” is a hearing. Audition in French means authorities ask you questions to understand the facts, to see if there is any crime committed or not;
@ kara: it sounds a bit like the American grand jury hearings, where a prosecutor interviews a succession of witnesses before a jury, no lawyers or public present, and then the jury eventually decides whether or not to indict. All very secret. In theory.
We don’t work that way.
… or who they swim with.
@ whatistheword: … which brings me back to the question I keep asking: who hired Claes Borgstrom, and who is paying him?
When this thread began, there were some comments that indicated the person who posted them had access to that kind of information, skdadl. I don’t know if they’ve dropped out, or what, but you’d think it wouldn’t be that difficult to find out who hired and is paying Borgstrom. I don’t have the level of skills or access necessary to gain that kind of info, but someone here should. If they can’t, that’s ominous. The words ‘cover-up at the highest level’ begin to chime in my mind …
OK, time to shed some light on that, I think. I have studied…
Borgstrom is what is called Målsägandebiträde. I cut and pasted that so I could get the dots in, in case you want to search and translate the term. The prosecutor argues the case and the defense attorney argues against. The prosecutor works for the justice system, not primarily acting on behalf of the plaintiff per se, although in practice they are on the same side.
Målsägandebiträde is neither prosecutor nor defender. It is a kind of extra lawyer to support and take care of the interests of the plaintiff personally. Victims of violent crimes like rape, robbery, assault, etc., such crimes that may render a prison sentence, can get a Målsägandebiträde.
In principle, the court decides if the plaintiff is eligible for having a Målsägandebiträde and appoints that lawyer and pays the bills. The plaintiff must actively request to get one, and may also request a particular lawyer (and this is a bit obscure, it is hard to tell how strongly you can demand a particular one). I don’t think there was much argument about that in this case though. All involved on the accusing side are all buddies in the .
I don’t really know how closely the prosecutor and the Målsägandebiträde cooperate normally, and I guess it may vary. But I think it is safe to say that in this case they can probably find common ground.
I don’t think there is any foul play in the hiring and paying of Borgstrom. It is all following normal protocol. (At least something is normal in this case, for a change.) I am very sure that Borgstrom happily volunteered and that with a high profile case like this, and his “specialty”, he would almost be on his knees and beg to be appointed. The disgusting part is that they are all apparatchiks with the same views and background, moving in the same dogmatic and political circles. For the well informed, the choice of Borgstrom is completely expected and obvious.
I hope that helps!
Thanks for all the comments and updates. Sorry I didn’t get chance to reply to any yesterday. Just for the record:
18th September Update: Assange free to leave Sweden
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Wikileaks-founder-free-to-leave-Sweden-Lawyer/Article1-601812.aspx
Oh, one more thing, Sweden does no use a jury system. The court consists of one or more legally trained, appointed judges, and a number of Nämndemän(pl). Those are laymen. They are appointed by political parties and the intention is that they will be ordinary people with common sense and experience from different areas that complement the legally qualified judge’s legal knowledge. Technically, you don’t have to be a member of a party to be appointed, you can approach any party and tell them you want to become a Nämndeman(sing).
And thas is a bit scary for JA, because virtually all political parties are infested with radical feminist dogma. So the deck is a little bit stacked against him to start with. It is not likely that the Nämndemän will be an average of Swedish citizens when a “rape” case is concerned.
@ Celsius, thanks very much and it helps a lot, but colour me gobsmacked.
I see from my Twitterfeed that Bodstrom, who works with Borgstrom, published an op-ed yesterday arguing for even more expansive rape laws. Bodstrom is [what?] in the SD?
I think I’ll go pull a duvet over my head for a while. This is so bad.
@Celcius, thanks for clarifying AA’s election circumstances. I’m confused – wasn’t she listed as being the press secretary for the Pirate Party very early on in this thread and yet you say she’s standing for the Social Democrats in the election :/
@Assange free to leave Sweden” I think this is a non-story and maybe it explains why the Swedish media have chosen to ignore it (no sign of it on Aftonbladet so far for example). There was no arrest warrant out for Assange anyway after the first one was withdrawn on 20th August. Assange has therefore always been free to leave Sweden if he wants but most importantly, that isn’t what he wants right now and maybe he’s being encouraged to leave for various reasons as skdadl speculates with this “story”. He wants his residence permit to be processed so he can carry on the work of WikiLeaks and I’m not sure if leaving the country would help that. He has stated anyway that he wants to remain in Sweden until this entire mess is cleared up.
@Borgstrom and Sweden’s jury system, Thanks for clearing up his appointment Celsius and the system of lawyer appointment in Sweden. It’s clear from his open-ed piece that this case is being used by certain people to further their own careers and agendas when it comes to the legal definition of rape. Thanks also for explaining the Swedish jury system. I was aware that there is no such thing as a public jury in Sweden and think it is a) scandalous and b) a big potential barrier to any kind of justice being done in this case. As you say, there are far too many people with left-wing, right-wing and feminist agendas in Sweden to judge this case fairly – to put Assange in front of a jury of politically appointed jurists is scandalous. For such a modern country, Sweden’s jury system is like something out of the dark ages.
@ skdadl. Can you give any link to that?
Yeah, the crazy prostitution law is also up for an upgrade. The is a SOU, which means…
“Statens offentliga utredningar” (SOU), “Swedish Government Official Reports”, is the official series of reports of committees appointed by the Swedish Government for the analysis of issues in anticipation of a proposed legislation. Reports of committees internal to one of the Swedish government ministries (“departement”) are published in another series, called “Departementsserien” (Ds). ”
Now, the SOU regarding the prostitution law was “ordered” by the minister, Beatrice Ask, and the result was also ordered in advance by defining certain parameters, for example that the effectiveness of the law must be verified and not questioned and that the result should be that the SOU should suggest that the punishments should be more severe, up from six months to two years. Yes, it is true! With the upgraded law you could get TWO YEARS IN JAIL for buying sex in Sweden! The report has even been internationally criticized for it poor scientific quality. It is complete humbug.
I would not be surprised if the rape law yo are referring to will be handled in the same way, but I am unaware what stage it is in, or if it is just Stasi-Bodstrom who is paving the way for his first big effort as minister of justice if they win the election tomorrow.
As i said earlier, the term “safe sex” is not a medical term in Sweden anymore, is a legal term. How can a man defend himself from being thrown in jail after intercourse? If we extrapolate the trend, in ten years’ time we could have a situation when ALL sex, including masturbation, will land you in jail for a decade. The Swedish people will then obliterate itself…
@ admin. No, she would probably not go near the PP, and I don’t think they would touch her with a ten foot pole.
She is a Social Democrat, the biggest party, not to be confused with the Sweden Democrats, which is the quasi neo-nazi rasist party. Within the Social Democrats there is a movement called Broderskapsrorelsen, the “brotherhood movement”, which is the christian religious wing of the party. That is where AA works (although she is on “sick leave” without being ill, just exploiting tax payers’ money) as the political secretary and press officer. It was in that capacity she invited JA to come and give a talk at one of their meetings. And she did all arrangements for his visit and even spread her legs… to bad for JA…
Hopefully the Anna and Sofia “units” will be left barking up a tree on a cold winter day with big fat lawyer bills and Julian will be moving into new landscapes. I don’t need all of the tiny “what really happened” details. We just want to see him on his way.
@ Celsius — sorry, no, it was just a tweet mentioning Bodstrom’s op-ed but without a link — I think in Aftonbladet, though.
I’m reading some stuff in Google Translate. Just came across a translation of what in Swedish must be “Wikileak’s spokesman” — GoogleT makes that “Wikileak’s frontal personal Julian Assange.” lol. I hope that JA can laugh at that if he’s reading.
@ Aries. No such luck about the “big fat lawyer bills”… read above… all lawyers and everyone else from police to judge in this case are paid with taxpayers’ money. Even the plaintiffs will get compensation for lost wages and travel, if I am not mistaken. What a f***king waste! They had some bad sex. So what? Happens all the time, without taking it court and waste money. They need to grow up!
@ Aries. As I said, no fat bills. But we may possibly feel some consolation from the fact that they may both have a hard time getting laid in the future. This may be a case of… “The Darwin Awards commemorate those who improve our gene pool by removing themselves from it”
(Need to cheer up: http://www.darwinawards.com/ …however, totally unrelated to the subject and completely OT, apologies are made in advance…)
So, Sweden’s system is from the Dark Ages? Really?
Here’s one link in English for those confused with the Swedish system:
http://www.bra.se/extra/pod/?action=pod_show&id=1&module_instance=11
And about rape in International statistics on crime and justice:
”Rape was defined in the UN Crime Trends Survey questionnaire to mean sexual intercourse without valid consent. Two out of three respondents to the 10th survey replied that they were able to follow the definition. One reason why the definition was not followed was that attempted rapes were included in their data. This problem applies to other crime types as well. Including assault.”
”The number of recorded rapes is relatively small since these offences are rarely reported to the police. Because of the very sensitive nature of the offence, it has been concluded that also victimisation surveys underestimate the number of rapes. Rapes are mostly committed by males, and the victims are women.[1]The penal codes of some countries define, however, rape as a gender neutral offence (in the metadata some countries explained that they could not follow the standard definition given in the questionnaire because according to their penal code the victim could only be a woman). In the UN-CTS data, the rape rate is calculated per 100,000 population. Therefore the rates for the female population, being the principal victims, are in practice twice as high as those presented in this chapter.”
”Southern Africa, Oceania and North America have the highest recorded rape rates, Asia the lowest. The differences between the regions are large. The comparability between the regions is limited because many figures from developing countries are from older surveys (e.g. no data were provided for Southern Africa in the most recent Crime Trends survey).”
”The differences between the rape rates of individual countries are large in the highest quartile (figure 5, table 3 in the Annex). This indicates that the definition of rape is likely to be broader in North America, for instance in Canada (Canada’s comment in the metadata: ‘ Data includes sexual assaults, i.e. Any physical sexual contact (includes touching) with a person against their will or without proper consent and may or may not include sexual intercourse’), compared to the European countries.”
“[1] Comparable information of the gender of the victims is not available. The European Sourcebook asks for the sex of the offender. In about one per cent of recorded rapes in 24 European countries the suspected offender was a woman (year 2006). This is, however, not evidence for that the victim was a man, and the female offender may have participated in the offence together with a male offender. Nor is it certain that in the cases with male perpetrators, the victim is a woman, although this is the situation in most cases.”
Etc.
This site contains a link to a afore mentioned PDF file with interesting statistics:
http://www.heuni.fi/Etusivu/Publications/1266333832841
Now, how far are you willing to go in defence of Julian Assange and his possibly criminal actions?
@ Ulla, it’s absolutely true, or at least I thought it was. In Canada, we have very enlightened/sensitive legislation about sexual assault, for which I have fought. I am a Canadian feminist who believes very much in that legislation.
And I look at the gossip that has been published from the two women’s statements to the Swedish prosecutors and to the tabloids, and I think that there is absolutely no case against Assange.
Some pompous middle-aged male plutocrat may have figured out how to build one in the last few weeks, though.
I was always under the impression Assange was “free to leave” — the concern was wrt what would happen if an arrest warrant were issued while he was out of the Sweden.and the question remains — “If Assange leaves, would he be allowed re-entry to Sweden?”
[a not-hard-to-imagine "political" resolution might be that Sweden drops all "investigation" but declares Assage less-than-desirable, ineligible for entry... ]
The “business” of employment as a “journalist” and status as “editor” of Wikileaks — not to even mention residency — are important. I hope alternatives to “Plan A” have already been considered, a “Plan B” devised solution and preparations for implementation in progress.
Redundancy is often a “good thing”
Susan, I think the greater concern is that, if JA leaves Sweden while a formal process is going on, as seems to be the case, given one complainant’s testimony yesterday and another’s on Monday (if you’re an American, think grand jury), then charges could be laid after he leaves … at which point an international arrest warrant could go out.
And guess who is waiting for that?
@Celsius Wow, thank you for all that. Gob smacked number two.
@ Boadacia
“This has to be a lesson to all, that whilst one has a sex drive, and run any controversial organisation such as Assange’s, one leaves oneself open to such attacks by the fervent enemies of a fair world, and truth.”
It is a fact, but what is the lesson? If the lesson is (as some are suggesting) that a person who is fighting for freedom should not have sex, or “Well, yes, of course he can, in theory, but it’s foolish, very foolish.” then where is this freedom we are fighting for? It is already lost.
If it is foolish to have sex, then it is foolish to eat what might be poisoned, foolish to travel or appear in public, foolish to speak, foolish to publish, foolish to stand up and be known … foolish to attempt to live freely, which is what he is fighting for.
If however, the lesson is for all of us to be aware of the injustice of this irrelevant persecution, to fight against it and to demand a response that is actually relevant to what he has done, and to demand privacy and freedom in our personal lives no matter what we say in public, then I’m with you.
Jacob Appelbaum would like his phones back.
Nobody here has suggested that a person fighting for freedom shouldn’t have sex. Please don’t twist things. And it is not sex we’re talking about if we’re talking about sexual harassment or rape accusations.
I didn’t say it was anyone here. Please don’t twist things.
My impression is that this is a no-win situation for TPTB in Sweden … no matter what is decided, no matter how things are resolved, there will be loud objections.
I’m doubtful anyone (sane) really wants to see him charged, much less tried for any of these allegations … so the problem becomes how to make the problem go away in a way that sort-of kind-of mollifies all parties.
I’m uncertain of the various what-is-contingent-on-what …
I gather that being officially designated “editor” of Wikileaks will convey some sort of protection …
Similarly, being granted official alien resident has benefits.
Being able to demonstrate one is officially a “journalist” with a regularly published column, again conveys some other implied protection
The looming still-to-be-configured prosecution by the United States Government for espionage — ESPIONAGE — may figure as a prominent consideration. (this is a big stretch of the definition of “espionage” and has dreadful, worst-yet implications — god only knows what treaties may be invoked.)
Personally, I’ve come to think this is primarily about that pending residency status at this point …
@ulla: “And it is not sex we’re talking about if we’re talking about sexual harassment or rape accusations.”
Your statement highlights the typical, lazy conflation of allegations and proven facts.
Stated with more precision, that *should* be:
And it is not sex we’re talking about if we’re talking about sexual harassment or rape, PERIOD.
IF we are still at the level of “accusations” which remain unsubstantiated and unproven–and which seem to contradict the women’s own words and experiences, as per the police report/interview framed so salaciously by the Daily Mail–THEN we are also still at level of talking about sex. period.
NOT YET sexual harassment and NOT YET rape. Again: Assange is innocent until proven guilty, would you not agree?
Trying to understand other people easily goes wrong. I don’t like to split hairs nor talk about words.
I wouldn’t trust the Daily Gossip as a trustworthy news source or as a legitimate source of information. However, that particular item may be truthful or partly truthful. But the police report was heavily blackened and it was only about one of these women.
Yes I agree that Assange is innocent until proven guilty, so is everyone else innocent until proven guilty. We can’t trust 10% truth as TRUTH.
Finally, does anyone know where this flurry of “assange is free to leave sweden” stories arose from this morning?
Accepted that there are the threat assessments AND the garani video AND the massive “biggest yet” leaks are in the wings (though the latter is probably at least a couple months out, no?)
So, is this all calculated “disinformation*” aimed at ballooning expectations that Assange in full superhero mode will suddenly appear not-in-Sweden and (in full Bond-Villian-Mode) take over the airways 24/7 for some stupendous leak in solidarity of the Free-Bradley movement?
Yes, on the internets no one knows you’re a dog or where you are.
*making what was always “true” appear new and exciting
@ georgie, I thought that was very beautiful, and I hope it will not be deleted. I would like to use it sometime soon (fully credited, promise).
@ Ulla:
Perhaps I am misreading you, but you seem to be implying there an equivalence between JA’s situation and that of the two women complainants.
In law in a democracy, there is no such equivalence. The women are not in legal jeopardy (not yet, anyway); JA is. He is the (sort of) accused, so he is the one entitled to the presumption of innocence. That’s the way it works.
The statements of the women are always to be viewed as suspect since they are serious charges against someone who has not been proved guilty.
All unproved charges are always to be considered suspect until tested in court. Do you grasp that, Ulla? The women make claims, and it is their claims that must be tested in court. That is the way the law works.
Well — in most democracies it is, anyway.
No, we don’t have to assume that the suspect is innocent but we have to treat him/her as if innocent. Meaning that we treat people with respect in spite of what they may have done, whatever crime or misconduct. We respect people’s human rights regardless of their status or other irrelevant factors. There can be no justice without this basic equality. No justice, no peace.
If you assume that Assange is innocent, then you only believe something that hasn’t yet been evidenced. The same goes of course, if someone assumes Assange guilty of something.
And btw, when we are talking about crimes we are not judging people but actions.
@ Ulla: no. The presumption of the innocence of the accused is absolute. In a democracy, it is.
That’s not just a question of being nice, or humane. It’s a question of logic and basic democratic principle.
No accused person should have to prove his innocence. You cannot prove innocence, which is why the law doesn’t work that way.
Any system that expects someone to prove his innocence is very very sick, and is not a democracy any longer.
All accusers are suspect. Their claims must be tested in court. And if accusers make their accusations dishonestly or frivolously, they should then face penalties.
The United Nations’ Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
Article 11.
* (1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.
@Anonimous
I was implying the lesson to be; that a man in his position and in such knowledge of the dangers of a possible set-up and how much he has upset the US Mafia, would be wise to curb his natural instincts in unknown territories, and be considerably more selective in his prospective sexual encounters.
His personal freedoms and and your indications of loss of freedom for us all, don’t quite compute in his case, as he is an exception to these normal considerations, by the very fact of his work and the effects on said Mafia, and their power to annihilate him, or at least seriously damage reputations, as has happened.
He’s a good looking boy, and one would think he would be able to be free as you put it, where’s it’s safer, and the laws he might understand (and the rest of us) were less obscure.
Hey Boadacia,
It was actually me who made the comment you replied to. I do understand what you are saying, I am just hoping that instead of blaming the victim we can try to hold the people tormenting him accountable. Because, as ML King pointed out, ‘Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.’
Where is the line between his freedoms and ours? Should Jacob Appelbaum expect to have his phones seized? Is he an exception for speaking in public? What of Nicholas Mead for writing this blog, should we know all of his personal details as well? What about mine? Yours? Where is this line for exceptions to normal considerations and who defines it? When do we stand up?
I understand that what you are saying is correct in reality, but I do not accept that we should acquiesce or support the idea of exceptions to freedom.
And it does not actually matter if he is guilty or not, his name should not have been released to the press and a responsible press should not have contributed to his persecution. Private information on a private individual (yes, he is, as much as you and I, despite speaking in public, as we do as well) is not the business of public media. It is not for us to judge the wisdom of his private choices, all we can do is defend his right to make them. Or not.
Ironically, this reminds me of the old arguments against rape victims. ‘Well, yes, of course they shouldn’t have done that, but what on earth was she doing there? And wearing THAT dress!’
@skdadl Thank you! You are always more than welcome to use anything of mine.
admin: Yes, AA was indeed listed on the original PP press release as Mr Assange’s ‘press secretary’. Then, after AA’s accusations were made public, her name was deleted. I’d pay good money to find out how her name originally got on that press release. And I’m willing to bet the same good money that she put it there herself. She seems to have a fairly comprehensive knowledge of how to manipulate the media to her own advantage. I think the only thing she wasn’t expecting was the backlash against her.
I had a huge fight with myself over whether to post this next link, but I think it’s worth reading. I was *incensed* when the *New York Post* got hold of a wry comment Daniel Assange had made on his Facebook page and blew it out of all proportion to make another sensational story. In this article, Daniel clarifies matters, and does so in such a remarkably rational, loving and balanced way that I think it would make any parent proud. The comments are interesting, also. As one of them says, now the son has stuck his head above the parapet, we hope he’ll be all right. Link: http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/09/17/daniel-assange-i-never-thought-wikileaks-would-succeed/
georgiebc: Keep up the good work! Great stuff and so well written.
Susan: Now the Americans interested in finding an espionage charge precedent to use against Mr Assange are digging back to 1917. I’ll go back and find the link for this, as it shows the desperation of the establishment to make the man a criminal when no actual criminal law exists with which to charge him .
The whole ‘he can leave Sweden now’ faux news item seems to be a concerted effort by the Swedish establishment and/or others to get rid of Mr Assange’s increasingly embarrassing presence in their country. What isn’t clear is where exactly the push is coming from: whether from merely embarrassed Swedish officials or from higher up and more sinister people. Or whether it’s an attempt to get rid of just him, or rid of the entire apparatus of Wikileaks in Sweden.
The 1917 Espionage Act item is from here: http://www.thinq.co.uk/2010/9/13/pentagon-ramps-war-wikileaks/ Very scary reading …
Thought you might all be interested to hear that WikiLeaks recently tweeted Rick’s site as providing the “strongest coverage about the Swedish Smear campaign against Assange.” Those of you who remember Rick, he threw a tantrum and stormed out of this thread on 6th September when I told him that his claim that “women control everything in Sweden” was a gross overstatement. Still, as he’s a bilingual Swede, his knowledge of Swedish politics and characters surrounding this case is very good although he’s convinced this whole thing is a “feminazi-CIA plot from the start” which tends to color some of his writing. You can read his “industry newsletter” (not quite sure how the Assange case relates to the software industry unless you want to make a tenuous link between the WikiLeaks website and software) here:
http://rixstep.com/1/
Celcius:
Sounds like something out of 1984 by George Orwell – the Love police I think ???
AA on Sick Leave: Yes, AA really is quite remarkable. She’s on sick leave from her job as political secretary and press officer at Broderskapsrorelsen and yet she still seems well enough to stand for parliament in the Swedish election and blog and tweet regularly.
AA as Pirate Party Press secretary: @whatistheword Thanks for confirming . @Celsius, She was mysteriously listed as the Pirate Party press secretary as I thought for Assange’s visit. And here is the proof:
http://www.mashtechworld.com/2010/08/18/swedish-pirate-get-together-to-host-new-wikileaks-servers-piratpa/
The Pirate Party immediately removed her name when this all blew up though presumably to avoid any embarrassment.
http://www.piratpartiet.se/feed-item/swedish-pirate-party-host-new-wikileaks-servers?sms_ss=digg
Maybe she was giving her services to any political party that could get her close to Assange? How can it be explained that she got this job? I mentioned this very early on in this thread here when the allegations had just come out but still no satisfactory answer has emerged.
@Celsius:
There’s something very, very wrong in a system which allows two people to be entitled to any kind of compensation after crying rape and then admitting to police the sex was consensual and without violence. Scandalous that the Swedish tax payer should have to pay for it too.
@Ulla,
Yes. A jury system that doesn’t even allow randomly picked member of the public to judge crimes but uses politically appointed juries sounds very, very backwards to me. Doesn’t it to you? And it’s no use copying and pasting in rape statistics because no rape has taken place here. For the 100th time, the women say they consented to the sex and say no violence or aggression was used.
@skdadl, Good point about an international arrest warrant if he leaves. Does an international arrest warrant mean that the American government would be able to arrest him then?
@Susan,
That’s exactly what this case is about now. What I don’t understand is why doesn’t Assange ask someone else from WikiLeaks to make the residency application instead. At the end of the day, it’s just a piece of paper they need. Or is he the only one that meets the residency criteria?
@whatistheword, Thanks for the link – not sure why you should agonize over pasting that as it’s a very good piece. Assange’s son probably makes some of the most rational and calmest assessments of the case yet:
@ whatistheword: Yes, that’s a good interview with Daniel in Crikey (notice that it was written up by an “intern” — another promising young person!). Daniel also took apart the NY Post smear-article on his blog, in much the same spirit as you see at Crikey, was annoyed at what he called their “quote-mining.” I’ll see if I can find the link a little later.
@ Celsius: I’m no expert in international (or any other) law, but ‘waaaaay back there somewhere, someone talked about what happens when these things get to Interpol, so I’ve been worried about that ever since. I’m presuming that JA has legal advisers who are thinking ahead about these things.
The trouble is, as I’m sure many here know, the U.S. government don’t necessarily play by the rules anyway — they make ‘em up on the spot when and as they feel they need to. That’s one of the reasons we need WikiLeaks!
@ georgiebc:
Exactly. And now I’m ashamed for making my own observation above about the power nap. I formally rescind that cheap comment. What was I thinking?
@ admin. Now I am seriously doubting your ability to read
You say: “@Celsius, She was mysteriously listed as the Pirate Party press secretary as I thought for Assange’s visit. And here is the proof:”
And then there is a link, where I can read this:
Quote: “Rick Falkvinge, party leader for the Swedish Pirate Party, +46-10-3333-401
Anna Troberg, deputy party leader for the Swedish Pirate Party, +46-10-3333-402
Anna Ardin, press secretary for Julian Assange, +46-733-907017″ Unquote.
Can you please tell me exactly where it says that she is press secretary for the Pirate Party? To me it looks like it says that she is JS’s press secretary.
(Sorry, I just had to rub that one in real good
)
SO, I maintain, AA has never been involved with the Pirate Party, and if you think about it more logically, you can only work for one party at a time in this kind of position. Her loyalty would be seriously question in both parties, to say the least.
@Celsius, Good point. I deserved that
I’m rushing through the comments sometimes to reply to everyone and not reading things properly. PS I didn’t hold the comment in moderation by the way if you were wondering – the system did and I have no idea why.
However, it still doesn’t explain why the Pirate Party removed her name from the press release other than they wanted to maybe disassociate themselves from her?
I will try to clear some of the possible misunderstandings here in quotations =
Unfortunately, in all wars (and this most surely is one) we cannot expect or hope for fairness or justice, as this incident is proving daily. We also don’t really know the truth here, with all the outside influences having their particular biased input. So, ‘blaming the victim’ is just another tactical pursuit.
There are many examples in history when those expecting to change the way justice and laws were perceived, that their sudden disappearing, or ‘other horrors’ would solve all the problems of those with vested interests opposing. I’m sure I don’t have to point them out.
So, I don’t support or agree that Assange should give up any rights of freedom, only that those very rights are defined at exceptional times by such powerful forces, he must keep in mind he is not dealing with people that have any respect or consideration of yours and my indignations of blatant disregard of said rights, and when they can make or change the very laws we write of, it will exasperate his position more.
As we aren’t able to know what JA has in his mind, or if he expected this sort of attack, and might even be enjoying himself in ways others of us might not, we have to try to remain steadfast in our non-emotional conditions of the aforementioned war, and it’s inevitable injustices. Maybe the fight for truth also sometimes has to break all excepted and expected rules?
My personal opinion is he would not exist now if not for the world watching on, and modern technologies of communications, curbing the actions of darker forces of power abuse.
@ skdadl. I am no legal expert in any way either, but again, I studied up and together with old memory fragments, I get this picture of Interpol.
As far as I understand, Interpol is not a police force on its own but a liaison organisation to help national police forces cooperate. Interpol has no jurisdiction anywhere, if I understand correctly, but are always in the hands of local police. I suppose they can investigate, and so can I, if I wish. In fact, they ask the public for help. Fugitives will be be on Red Notice, which is not a warrant for arrest, and the local police will decide to make a provisional arrest of the fugitive and extradite the person to where the crime was committed.
From here:
http://www.interpol.int/Public/Wanted/fugitiveInvestServ.asp
I got this:
“The INTERPOL Red Notice has been recognised in a number of countries as having the legal value to serve as a basis for provisional arrest. The persons concerned are wanted by national jurisdictions or International Criminal Tribunals, where appropriate, and the Red Notice is intended to help police identify or locate these individuals with a view to their arrest and extradition.”
So, as Interpol is more of an information channel than a bunch of cops, I don’t think it makes much difference in this case. If they know he is in one country, they could ask the local police to pick him up directly, if there is an extradition treaty.
Now, of course, once the US gets a reason to arrest someone, they may have additional things to chat about.
But if the US would want JA for espionage, and they had some kind of case that they could claim, the could probably ask any country to extradite him, without using a rape case as a decoy. And if the rape case in Sweden is used, he would be sent back to Sweden, from wherever he may be.
On the other hand, JA has tried to get a safe haven in Sweden for such things, because of Swedish law supposedly being better at protecting against that kind of allegation. I don’t know if that would rotect against an espionage case though.
Long and short, I don’t think Interpol’s role should be overrated here.
@ admin. Thanks!
I had a feeling it was something like that but still could not help taking the chance…
Anyway, at this:
“However, it still doesn’t explain why the Pirate Party removed her name from the press release other than they wanted to maybe disassociate themselves from her?”
Well, understandable if they do, I think. Who wouldn’t try to keep distance from her! But no problem noe, she is helping everyone in that respect, being on sick leave…
The second link you posted, this one, actually explains it in plain words, at the bottom. http://www.piratpartiet.se/feed-item/swedish-pirate-party-host-new-wikileaks-servers?sms_ss=digg
AA just didn’t want her phone line busy all the time, it seems.
Just take a look…
“Comment: at the time of release, this press release had a third person listed, in the role of Swedish press secretary for Julian Assange. We were asked to remove that listing in the published release as this person is unable to contact Mr. Assange (like most the rest of the world) and this person was tired of being constantly called by all the world’s media with the expectation of reaching Mr. Assange. We are adding this comment as several people on the net have noticed that the third listed name has disappeared and have started to speculate as to the reason. Therefore, we are disclosing the quite straightforward reason.”
@ Celsius: Oh, I shouldn’t laugh at that one (“this person is unable to contact Mr Assange”), but …
@Celsius, Thanks. I didn’t realize that the page had been updated with that comment since it was first published. She could have always just switched the phone off though couldn’t she? Unless of course she used her own personal mobile number which was a bit daft considering even before this case happened, she should have surely realized that Assange would have been in high demand by the world’s press over the signing of the deal with Pirate Party.
@ skdadl: Well, we know for sure that they will meet again, don’t we?
@ Celsius: Do we know that? Oh, dear. I hope not, for his sake. I’ve been hoping that, on Tuesday, Ms Nye will announce that, after a deep rethink of things, she’s decided it was all a big misunderstanding, although given the current hearings, that’s maybe a bit wishful of me.
As someone says above, if she is counting on the results of the Swedish elections to muffle anything she says about JA, she’s very wrong about the effects in North America, anyway. It is regrettable but true that North Americans, especially the Merkin variety, know little and care less about elections in Sweden, but JA is moderately high-profile and anything that happens to him will be news here.
@admin: “What I don’t understand is why doesn’t Assange ask someone else from WikiLeaks to make the residency application instead.”
perhaps this is in the pipeline, but just not being made into a public show? If he suddenly withdrew his application it might divert scrutiny onto a fragile effort.
I am watching this:
http://www.thelocal.se/29110/20100919/
But I don’t know, how a Swedish voter would interprete it. Nothing special in there for me.
@Sidd Good timing. That gives me the perfect opportunity to take a small time-out from everything Assange and do a bit of shameless self promotion and plug my latest blog post if you’ll allow me
: Sweden – Where liberal left is right which ties in with the election results in Sweden tonight:
http://nicholasmead.com/2010/09/19/sweden-where-liberal-left-is-right/
I’d be particularly interested in any comments from Swedish readers and of course those from elsewhere as the failure of the liberal left is something that has affected just about every country in the West. Please make any comments on that post though and not this one as this post is strictly Assange related only
Thanks.
@whatistheword Thank you!
@Boadacia I think we agree? I’m not clear on some of your points, there is a much expanded version of my position on my blog if you’d like to tell me more (if we do disagree). Not sure how OT @admin would like me to get here
Thanks, Nicolas. This was exactly what I was asking for.
Though I still don’t know, what kind of insights you have got…
Would be nice, if you could explain or lead me to a link.
@Sidd, If you mean reaction to the Swedish election, that blog post sums up my own personal insight. If you’re looking for a Swedish reaction, then I’m sure Celsius would be a better person to ask. Most of the reaction won’t come until tomorrow morning when the full results are in.
@georgiebc, I’ll check out your post properly on Assange when I’ve had some sleep
You can go as OT as you like here as long as it’s at least rational and well argued 
Hehe, yes we are a team after all! Hope, we are good!
Celsius: I forgot to thank you for all the digging and explaining you’ve been doing. Like skdadl, I was too gobsmacked by some of your revelations about Swedish law to actually type anything for a while there … I was too terrified.
admin: I remember Rick. Too bad his is being taken as the authoritative view from Sweden. Sigh. Have you made Wikileaks aware of *your* excellent thread? Do you mind if I do? I am also going to post this link on *Crikey*. It took them a while to rally to the story, but now they’re on it. Good to see international human rights lawyer Geoffrey Robertson putting his views forward about this case.
As to why Wikileaks is not putting someone else up for residency status, that ‘piece of paper’, I can think of a number of reasons: point of honour, point of pride; not giving in to the bad guys; not wishing to admit, even tacitly, that the Swedish authorities have a case against him, etc, etc. I think, at this stage, it’s gone beyond being a simple piece of paper.
Back to admin: You state that AA is still tweeting and blogging. Where? And what’s she saying? That would be interesting reading and quite possibly pertinent to the case.
Also, thanks for the link to your article about the Swedish election. You have a new fan
Susan: ‘Merkins’. Smile.
skdadl: Yes, I noticed the *Crikey* article was written by an ‘intern’, too. Despite the fact that I didn’t know we actually had that term in Oz, yet, it being American, I was so impressed by both of them that I decided to post the link – there’s hope for the world if young people like this are going to be running the joint soon
.
I haven’t posted for some time, because of the concern that some people here might be planted by the two women. I did not want to feed in my commentary as I felt what if AA read and was furious and countered just to get even on this case.
All I can say is, that JA’s attorney has played a very good chess game. Either way, they are defeated, because this case can be taken to the European Union where JA will surely win.
As for Marianne Nye, she needs to set aside politics and be herself and decide it once for all. If she is protecting JA, then I can understand.
I am quite shocked with the comments above that SW has an American boyfriend and what was she doing in the apartment with JA? Was this a set up in any way?
I know this sounds silly, but I had a dream today and I saw that JA is ill with high temperature and I saw that two women entered the room and said “Is that your friend?” JA said, politely, “Yes.” All of a sudden, these two women entered two different entrances as if cowering and disappeared. I was terrified and ran out of the scenario. Their behavior was quite scary and unusual. JA yelled and said, we have to leave this place and went to get his stuff. All of a sudden, I sensed in my dream that these two women were used and sent by two individuals to create all this havoc. One thing I know, that these two women are defeated in the dream.
I know dreams can be so difficult to interpret sometimes.
I also dreamt of JA, but he was the one who gave me fever, I should sue him for sexual harassment in my dreams.
Dreams are dreams I don’t think your dream meant something except that you care for him
@whatistheword I haven’t made WikiLeaks aware of this thread or blog post but if you wish to be the first, please be my guest to pass it onto them and Crikey. Thanks
BTW, here is AA’s twitter account: http://twitter.com/annaardin. And I’m glad you liked my latest blog post even though I can’t quite see it generating quite the same amount of debate as this has although the failure of the liberal left is arguably as important as what’s happening here with Assange and WikiLeaks.
@Siboni/Kara, Erm, we’re entering uncharted territory when you talk about having “erotic” related dreams about Assange (well Ok, not quite “erotic” in your case Siboni). He’s already in enough trouble without giving those who might want to smear him further ideas!
I just wanted to thank everyone for those links and discussions of ECHR, Interpol and Swedish laws. The collection of info amassed here has been helpful and fascinating (and occasionally petrifying).
I’m looking forward to getting new information, too, but I’m not optimistic that we’re going to get it any time soon. Marianne Ny has threatened (according to SvD) that the investigation could take “months”, but no one has said why. Unless there’s a whole lot of surprising information in the redacted parts of the police report, there still appears to be no reason for it to take so long to work out whether this should or should not go to court.
Does anyone know if any international human rights groups have spoken publically about this? Geoffrey Robertson has stepped up, and so has a Swedish group, but I think that international organisations should be getting off their backsides, too. If the prosecutors don’t explain themselves soon, I think that we should all demand fairness as a community.
PS Have they revealed or promised to investigate the source of the leaks to the press?
…because surely leaking info about an ongoing investigation into allegations of sex crimes doesn’t fall under Swedish source protection laws? (sorry about the multiple posting!)
@ Gem, which international groups would we think of? The first that comes to mind is Amnesty International, but right away, we run into a troubled history there, within AI itself and then between AI and WL, even though AI has given JA himself an award.
For the history, see WL’s publication of pro-abortion docs that AI tried to keep secret:
http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Amnesty_International_abortion_policy_documents_2008
And then the odd case of Gita Saghal:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/04/amnesty-international-suspends-womens-rights-activist-who-questioned-its-partnership-with-taliban-su.html
And then the less-than-promising reaction of a group of HR orgs to WL’s release of the Afghan war logs:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/08/human-rights-groups-urge-wikileaks-remove-afghan-names/
Quite a lot could be said of each of those stories, but I think it’s fair to say that the NGOs aren’t all that stable these days, and not all that brave. Has AI taken on Bradley Manning, eg, who is already in prison, an obvious prisoner of conscience? The protests on his behalf this last weekend in the U.S. and Canada were organized by individuals like Ellsberg and Michael Moore.
Kara,
Stop it! I had a nightmare! There was nothing bad in that dream. I guess the whole Assange crisis has traumatized everybody as these women were quite fearsome as they entered the room. Lots of laugh!
@Gem, I agree that there seems no justification in taking “months” (as the prosecutor claims) to decide whether something illegal happened with a condom or not. I wonder how long it usually takes rape allegations to be investigated in Sweden. Considering the amount the police and prosecutors probably have to deal with over a year, I’m guessing not this long. There is no investigation into the leaked police report as far as I know.
@skdadl, I saw an interview with Assange somewhere where he claimed that the Amnesty International “criticism” of WikiLeaks was actually a personal e-mail sent by them to him that had somehow got out and was not so much a telling-off as advice on how to publish the leaks. I can’t remember exactly what he said though so don’t quote me on it. I agree it is strange though how Amnesty International haven’t taken on the case of Bradley Manning.
This is, what Wikileaks twittered on August 10:
“Amnesty International spokeswoman Susanna Flood confirms there was no authorized statement on WikiLeaks.”
Just found it back. Julian told in an interview:
“And, during the course of this private email correspondence that was never terminated on any ill will, but rather was an ongoing process to find out how many bodies we could get from these organisations to go through the last 15,000, someone, covertly, leaked the correspondence to the Wall Street Journal.
There was no official statements. The Wall Street Journal then put that out. Why not just make a public statement?
Something very odd and disturbing was going on with that series of correspondence.”
There is a short transription and the full video of the meeting in London (Julian participated via video link).
http://www.mathaba.net/news/?x=624310?related
Well if Ny intends to drag this out even now that the elections are through that would certainly raise MY doubts as to who would benefit from this going on.
I can totally understand that legal matters do take time and should not be rushed for good reasons. There is also the fact that justice system works on its own rules and timeframes, I guess one would have to compare this case to others to get a meassure of how slow or fast this is going.
While I do not like the concept, I can also see how it is plausible that things were on hold DUE to the elections…
Still, the fact that this is taking time, PLUS the fact that there is a clampdown on info about the current status of legal proceedings leaves a bitter/ ill feeling.
If things do not start to move again about a week after the elections, considering there only seems to be that much info and witness statements that possibly could be collected and evaluated as part of the proceedings … well lez just say the longer this goes on in such a manner, the higher the chances that the political pressure Ny might be under is NOT “just internal Swedish affairs”
imho that is …
@ Sidd, yes, it’s true that the WSJ put a nasty spin on their publication of the correspondence, which is predictable. Still, it was a bit irksome, I’m guessing, that they were echoing the White House position, emphasizing the possible danger to collaborators.
I don’t know all the groups well, but both AI and the ICG feel they have to maintain rigorous neutrality, which sometimes leads to friction between them and those with more left or activist commitments. (AI won’t support boycotts, eg.)
Was AA elected for a seat in kommunfullmaktige for Stockholm in the election?
@Skadl, I think AI has a lot of experience and I have no doubt, that they – as an organisation – know better, how to handle things, then the people of Wikileaks. As Assange once said: “If we appear like amateurs, it is because we are amatuers.” (No quote, just from memory.)
I saw a few tweets in their name, which indeed sounded amateurish, if not childish. (Maybe some saw mine, too, but I am not an organization.)
Nevertheless, they are walking new ways and they are breaking up the old rope teams.
@The accusations: I had to think a lot about a very parallel case over here in Germany and wondered, if this was the blueprint for this one, but convinced myself, that this must be a coincidence.
Back in february a woman called the police and reported, that her friend had raped her. This friend turned out to be the most famous tv meteorologist, a nice and humourous guy from Switzerland, who made the weather forecast a pure entertainment.
Since he had a job at the Olympic Games for the German tv, nobody stopped him to leave the country. But when he returned, the police waited for him at the airport and arrested him immidiately.
It was said, that he raped this woman brutally, even threatened her with a knif and injured her badly. So he was imprisoned for about four month.
With the times, doubts came up. The woman was not his steady girl friend, as she had said, but more like a seaman’s bride – one of a few. She had not received a letter with two tickets for him and another woman – as she had said, how she found out, he had another girl friend – but she had written that letter by herself.
While a consultant of the prosecution saw evidence for the brutal rape, two other consultants saw hints, that the woman had hurt herself.
The case is still not clear. But why I now mention it here is, because the sunshine press now reports of insights in the files and a leak of chatlogs.
A few ex-friends have contacted each other via web – and also phone – and chatted about the case. That’s very disturbing, because they all are witnesses, who will be heard infront of the court, before the said victim will be heard.
This is not only a lot of talking about sexual habits, but it was even reported, that one woman clearly reminded the others, that the stories must fit to the one of the victim.
I wonder, how this will influence this case now.
So my thought was: Keep the case swinging in the wind long enough and it will develop by itself. One more reason for the Swedish prosecutors to come forward quickly, before it looks like a script. (Well it does anyway, but you know what I mean.)
@ Sidd: To me, problems like the one you describe, where witnesses have a chance to get together and fix their testimony, should be headed off in the first place by good police investigation. That’s one of the things police are supposed to prevent by documenting everything closely and fast, and maybe re-testing witnesses when they sniff something wrong.
The odd thing about these cases to me is that the prosecutors get involved so early on — during the investigation, which I think of as police work. Any justice ministry is going to be more, ah, politically sensitive than the police are supposed to be — I don’t think that prosecutors are the best investigators early on.
Ah, well. I have thought of a way to move this case along faster. If I blog about it, then sure as night follows day, something will happen to outdate my blogpost before the pixels are dry.
@ skdadl. “The odd thing about these cases to me is that the prosecutors get involved so early on — during the investigation, which I think of as police work.” I see nothing odd in that, it is perfectly normal procedure, in most countries I think..
The prosecutors are the leaders of the investigation, as soon as a crime is suspected and especially when a suspect exists. It is their duty to be involved early on, and they have the responsibility to keep everything done legally correct, as far as I understand it.
If any means of force is to be used against anyone by the state (with the exception of the immediate apprehension of a criminal – anhållan in Swedish) like a house search, phone tap, or a limitation of the suspects’ freedom in any way, it has to be decided by the prosecutor or the court, not the police. The police is just the tool of the judicial system.
There are three degrees of temporary restricteed freedom in Sweden, before a jail sentence.
Gripande (apprehension?); normally by police, but a citzen can do it as well. You can be held by the police for 12 hours maximum for questioning.
Anhållan (arrest?); done by the prosecutor. Can be done directly following ‘gripande’ or in absentia. Can be done if there is a risk that the suspect runs away or manipulates the investigation.
Häktning; a jailing awaiting court. It is decided by the court in a hearing where the prosecutor and the suspects’ defence lawyer argues the case. Same reasons as above must exist.
I feel like I am going to Law School…
22nd September Update: Witness who worked with both Assange and AA in Stockholm tells police that AA gave him several different versions of what happened on the night of the “rape”
It seems the police have interviewed someone who worked with AA and says she gave him several different versions of what happened on the night of the allegations. Yet more inconsistencies in the reporting of these allegations.
Full story here: http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article7827689.ab
Edited translation here:
There is a reason why people from certain countries don’t understand the normal procedures of Swedish system. Prosecutors go by the law in their legal system but people from other countries think they should do things the way things are done in their country and in their legal system. It’s bias.
Ignorance is no excuse.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_country_legal_systems
Isn’t ‘changing your story’ a dead giveaway you’re lying? Or have I watched ‘too many TV shows’?
There are two excellent documentaries about Wikileaks and Julian Assange by SBS’s Mark Davis. SBS is an Australian station originally set up to provide information and entertainment for the large multicultural population of Australia. Mark Davis is an astonishing journalist: he travels the world with his video camera and his questions and, with these meagre resources, he produces better documentaries than many commercial stations with all their resources.
When I originally watched these programs, I joined in the chat afterwards. Assange also put in an appearance there after ‘The Whistleblower’ aired, but not after ‘Inside Wikileaks’, which is understandable. He was would have been pretty preoccupied during and after the second one, as it takes place just before the leak of the Afghan war diaries. ‘Inside Wikileaks’ follows Assange and a miscellaneous crew of journalists, editors, assistants and others in the weeks and hours before Wikileak released its cache of Afghan war documents.
When the documentaries first came out, I was a little dubious about the way Assange was being singled out as the face of Wikileaks, although I understood why it was necessary. I wasn’t sure whether it was a good thing that one individual should be so associated with what is actually a vast organisation. And I wondered if he minded losing his anonymity.
Now, however, I’m glad these documentaries are available. Watching them, you get some insight into the mind of the man behind Wikileaks, and, having read this and other threads with mounting horror as people have speculated freely about Assange’s motivations, his character, his state of health (*Asperger’s Syndrome*?!?) and even his sex life, I think perhaps it might give people who are curious about the man some sense of perspective. Sorry, admin, if this is slightly OT.
Here’s the link: http://www.sbs.com.au/dateline/story/about/id/600647/n/Inside-WikiLeaks
http://www.sbs.com.au/dateline/story/watch/id/600572/n/The-Whistleblower
If anyone has any difficulty getting them from the above links, they are also posted on YouTube. You type in ‘SBS + Mark Davis + Julian Assange’ or ‘SBS + Mark Davis + ‘Inside Wikileaks’.
Enjoy
I can second whatistheword’s suggestion that people watch those two dateline shows.
@ whatistheword, Davis’s documentaries are excellent, I agree. I found them on YouTube a while ago and was very impressed. Davis obviously had JA’s confidence — as, eg, Chris Anderson did in the TED appearance. They ask more than the rote predictable questions and they know how to listen, so they get more back from JA — real lessons in good journalism. (Great show you’ve got there in SBS Dateline.)
@ admin: So now we’re on to hearsay evidence? And it’s still leaking?
@ Celsius: I agree that the police must get the approval of a prosecutor (here, the Crown) or a judge to proceed with an investigation and with certain actions like searches (warrants required), but to call the prosecutors “leaders of the investigation” seems odd to me. Normally, the police construct a case, backed up by evidence, and finally present it to the prosecutor/Crown, who then decides whether to charge or not. If the prosecutors are deeply involved in the investigation, it is going to be politicized. The police must not act on their own without civilian oversight; but neither can they be given political direction — the police must not be politicized.
And as a PS for Ulla: that’s not bias or national variation, of which there will inevitably be some at the level of detail. That’s basic democratic theory. Violate it, and you lose democracy.
No skdadl, it’s not democratic that some bunch of a self-proclaimed internet jury starts to decide or make demands on how the Swedish prosecution should do their job. You can practice your common law and think it’s better than any other system on earth but you don’t get to make demands that Sweden should change their system.
Of course you may express your opinions e.g. that it’s shocking that prosecutors in Sweden are women, how those women are incompetent, and how their whole system is from the dark ages, but your opinion doesn’t count. I’m sure the Swedes can handle their own affairs much better without your quite out-of-date and puritanical help.
@ Ulla: When did I ever express such opinions? Could you maintain some basic civility, please?
@whatistheword, Thanks very much for the links. I’ve had a quick look and they look excellent documentaries. That’s this evening’s viewing sorted out for me. I think on the grounds that they offer a fascinating insight into the life and persona of Assange, they are relevant to this case and not too off topic. I’ll let you know my full thoughts on them once I’ve watched them.
@skadadl,
If Aftonbladet are to be believed, it is an official interview from the police that’s yet again been leaked. I agree that someone ought to call a plumber soon though because this has to be the leakiest case ever.
@skdadl and Ulla, I’ve deleted a few of the comments relating to the grammatical spat between you because I don’t want this thread being taken over by private spats between two people, especially ones over use of grammar! Sorry about that and hope you understand.
@Ulla, I think we can safely say the “women bashers” are long gone from this thread. None of the commenters who remain in this discussion have anything against women and no one here has said or thinks “that it’s shocking that prosecutors in Sweden are women, how those women are incompetent.” Judging by the sequence of events surrounding this case, there have understandably been questions asked about the competency of those handling this case both by people on here and Assange himself. It has nothing to do whether the people handling it are women or not. I myself did say that the jury system in Sweden is “like something out of the dark ages” NOT because women are allowed in it but because if Celsius’s explanation is correct, it works on the basis of politically appointed jurists and not jurists picked at random from members of the public. For such a modern country like Sweden, that seems to me to be an awfully backwards way of dealing out justice, especially if it were applied to a case as politically charged as Assange’s.
No one has proclaimed themselves judge and jury of this case here and I think you yourself underestimate the Swedish prosecution service if you think this discussion will have any bearing on their own internal processes. What people are allowed to do however in a democratic society, is to monitor the process, judge the evidence that is available for themselves and make their own decisions and express their own thoughts and opinions about the process. That’s all that is happening here. There is no grand campaign to change the entire Swedish justice system – the only concern is that Assange is treated fairly. So far, many people think he’s been given a pretty rough ride by the way things have been handled and they are free to express those concerns here.
I keep thinking the praying mantis might be a good insignia here Ulla..
@ admin, fair enough, and I should know better than to play shadow mod. Disinformation gets to me, though, along with the claim that the opinions of citizens of the world don’t count. They very much do, which is why we have international courts and codes, and imo should be hoping for more. That seems to me a basic WL commitment.
The SBS Dateline interviews were interesting, you get a much better feel for what Julian’s days are like (or maybe *were* like before the rape accusations.) I also read the chat transcript that followed and had to cringe when I came across this exchange:
10:05
[Comment From JPerry]
Have you ever been offered hush money?
10:06
Julian Assange (Oslo):
Perry: No russian honeytraps either, frankly I’m disappointed.
Oh, Julian, if you’d only known what was coming, you wouldn’t have joked about it…
@skadadl, No worries. I understand you were being accused of saying something you didn’t say and it’s annoying.
@Colleen, That quote is rather ironic from Assange – I’m going to watch both films shortly. Although it should be pointed out it looks unlikely a “honeypot” trap has happened here. It looks more like a personal vendetta (at least that’s how it started) or huge misunderstanding but if any powerful interests were dreaming up “Russian honeytraps” for Assange, they could barely have planned it any better than the way things have turned out for him so far.
BTW, I don’t usually post off topic but there is something absolutely bizarre going on in the Swedish elections right now that I’d like to share.
If some of you don’t know the situation, Frederik Reinfeldt’s right wing Alliance didn’t quite win the election as they would have liked because they need a few more seats to get a majority in Parliament. They therefore either have to collaborate with a far-right racist party (which would be a PR disaster for Reinfeldt) or a Green party (too left wing for him). However, due to a rather complex series of recounts, counting of votes from abroad and hugely complicated winning rules, it looks like they are going to conveniently avoid having to do either and are somehow winning back the few seats they need for a majority. In Gothenburg, vote counters claim the Alliance lost by just FOUR votes and are recounting them for a THIRD time to see if it is correct.
I’m not saying this is a Bush/Gore vote rigging scandal, but I think it’s all a little odd.
Explanation of what’s happening here (and can anyone seriously understand a system where a party wins more votes in a region but isn’t elected to parliament for that region)
http://www.thelocal.se/29190/20100922/
Live blog coverage of the “recounts” here:
http://www.thelocal.se/29136/20100922/
I think Sweden has had enough international embarrassment this month without getting itself into a very strange situation with its voting system.
BTW, This is how Sweden’s ultra complex “adjusted seats” system works. You need a degree in maths to understand it. Sorry again this is so off topic but the recounts are taking place right now and it’s all breaking news:
admin:
Your response was to the point on the below-mentioned:
“No one has proclaimed themselves judge and jury of this case here and I think you yourself underestimate the Swedish prosecution service if you think this discussion will have any bearing on their own internal processes. What people are allowed to do however in a democratic society, is to monitor the process, judge the evidence that is available for themselves and make their own decisions and express their own thoughts and opinions about the process. That’s all that is happening here. There is no grand campaign to change the entire Swedish justice system – the only concern is that Assange is treated fairly. So far, many people think he’s been given a pretty rough ride by the way things have been handled and they are free to express those concerns here.”
You are absolutely right that I for one was processing the Assange case democratically. I must also say that your English has improved. Good for you!
The translation of yours on “22nd September Update: Witness who worked with both Assange and AA in Stockholm tells police that AA gave him several different versions of what happened on the night of the “rape”
reminded me of my premonition that I had that these two people were somewhat dealing with two different individuals. My view is that there is some conspiracy is taking place.
On the lighter side: If Marianne Nye had to hear my silly dream, or Kara’s; then she might have hard time resolving the case if Assange committed consensual, sexual harassment, or rape in our dreams. I am not sure what she would call it? I would call it a “Dream.”
Presently, this case they are investigating is beyond the legal system of Sweden or anywhere in the world. As a result, the London Attorneys are scratching their heads and so am I.
[quote]@skadadl, No worries. I understand you were being accused of saying something you didn’t say and it’s annoying.[/quote]
No you don’t understand. I wasn’t accusing skdadl of anything. I was simply explaining my writing and that I wasn’t referring to any particular individual, although I used a word ‘you’ in it. I was explaining that ‘you’ is plural and generic – this is the ‘grammatical’ discussion that you deleted.
@ Colleen, I must confess that one of my first reactions when I read the mangled version of the women’s leaked testimony to the Daily Mail (and it had to be mangled — the tabloids all contradict one another, and then the testimony is internally self-contradictory) was sheer relief.
Thank God, I thought. The kid actually does eat sometimes; he does sleep sometimes; and he has sex sometimes. So much of what I’d heard before had left me wondering. I was really glad to hear he sometimes has a normal life.
I know a lot of people, male and female, who make limp jokes about sex, and they don’t end up facing criminal charges or public humiliation.
@Swedish election recount: For anyone who’s interested, the news this morning is that the Government still fell 2 seats short of a majority because they lost Gothenburg by just 19 votes and Varmland by 7 votes. However, it’s thought the Government may not stop there as they are deciding whether to take the results to the appeals court because the count was so close. This could mean the Swedish election isn’t decided until November – yet more legal drama and international scrutiny on the justice system for Sweden! Not sure if this will affect the Assange case but if prosecutors are waiting until the election outcome is complete to finalize everything, it could drag it out even further. That’s enough off topic stuff anyway.
@Siboni and Anonymous: I’ve deleted your conversation about whether Siboni “is on crack or not” – hope you understand. @Anonymous, I think what Siboni may have meant is my “translations have improved” rather than my “English” but I understand the confusion.
@Ulla, OK, it was a grammatical misunderstanding. Fair enough. Nevertheless, not even the “women bashers” on this post ever said “its shocking that prosecutors in Sweden are women” and I think you have to be a bit careful about how you word accusations like that and who you are aiming them at when you say such things.
@Siboni, I think things have been made complicated enough in this case without you introducing your dreams into this so maybe you could drop that now
The case is certainly not “beyond the legal system of here or anywhere else” as you say either. It’s a simple question of what did or did not happen with a condom that’s been dragged out by those handling the case into some kind of grotesque international soap opera.
@whatistheword, Just to let you know I watched the two documentaries on Assange. Really really interesting stuff. A very rare insight into his “backpacker” activist life. I can’t believe the size of the iMac he manages to stick into his bag at one stage
On the character evidence you see there, it’s very hard to see a “rapist” (although I acknowledge there’s no such thing as a typical rapist). What I saw was a deeply committed, moral and quite shy man who is quietly trying to carry out a very important mission. The stuff about his early hacking days in Australia was interesting too – it was hard to recognise him as a teenager! The stuff in Iceland was also inspiring – I wonder if that “whistle-blowing protection act” has been passed by the parliament there yet. Thanks again for the links anyway.
whatistheword, I too would like to thank you for the documentaries, they were a great evening viewing.
For those who read Ludlow’s earlier piece in the Nation about the history of hacktivist culture, or who have wondered about that memo from the “five” NGOs written up in the WSJ, this is a must-read:
http://alphavilleherald.com/2010/09/why-is-jeanne-whalen-stonewalling-on-her-wikileaks-story.html
When I read it, it reminded me of Stanislav Lem’s “Dzienniki gwiazdowe”.
@ Sidd, I haven’t read that (translated as “The Star Diaries,” I see), but I have read a little Lem, and yes, the closing exchange especially is resonant:
For a time there, I had abandoned thoughts of international conspiracy, although this case has always smelled political, if only locally. It’s more than just personal, obviously.
But I think I’m being nudged back in the direction of international conspiracy. It would be the DIA (Defense Intel Agency), not the CIA, that’s in play (Obama forbade the CIA to kidnap and torture for a while, but the DoD are free to kidnap and torture away, which we know they do, through JSOC and other special forces — everybody wave at that nice General Carr).
I don’t expect most of our governments ever to feel ashamed of behaving in the tacky, subservient way that Sweden now apparently is (my government does it too), but I wonder whether AA and/or SW know or care how they were or are being used. Are they happy to think that they may be helping to kill someone?
@skdadl, Thanks for the article – very interesting and I notice WikiLeaks tweeted it too. The “Amnesty International condemn Wikileaks” threw a lot of people at the time and the corporate media parroted it around the world in double quick time. It’s now clear they did nothing of the sort but it’s just par for the course in the corporate media propaganda campaign to smear WikiLeaks.
@Sidd, As regards conspiracy, I still think this started out as a personal vendetta between the two women but the CIA, DIA or whoever, have surely started pulling their strings in the corporate media and secret services to string it out and milk it for all it’s worth.
Well, the Star Diaries are a crazy collection of phantastic adventueres of Ijon Tichy. In one of those stories Tichy meets himself, like Peter Ludlow chats with Urizenus Sklar.
A second thing the Star Diaries are about is the reality of subjectiv impressions.
What irritated me with Ludlow is, that he mixes reality with satire, and I am not sure, if every reader realizes this. I’m not even sure, if Ludlow himself thought, he was satirical.
All I get from this article is, that he asked Jeanne Whalen about the background of a statement and she refused to answer.
[b]@admin[/b], I tend to think, you are right, but I am still waiting for more information. From all we know, I don’t see AA as a puppet of any secret intelligence. But SW just jumped in like that and I still don’t have any clear picture of her.
I know what my subjective perspective is because I’ve lived long enough to experience it repeated over and over.. When hasn’t the US govenment or political interests been able to infiltrate?
And women this politcally savy being so naively self centered about an STD or condom… It’s a marketable ruse… that’s all it is. IMO
What puzzles me, tomi, is that Occham’s Razor does not work as usually.
If I only ask for the two women, who accused their superstar, then it clearly is a vendetta, as Nicholas suggests.
But if I take the “big picture” – I know how much you love that term from other discussions – Occham’ Razor says, it is all happening as they had planned a long time ago.
Coincidences happen. But if there are too many of them, one must ask questions.
The longer this farce is taking on in Sweden, the more it will look like a smear campaign.
Unless they conclude the investigation, no charges are filed and he is granted “alien resident” status and work permit — For some reason I am feeling more optimistic today.
If the radical feminist power structure is as portrayed here, yes, it will take real political courage to declare the matter closed without charges filed. In my opinion, the insistence that there be a “legal remedy” for all matters is a curse of modern times.
In addition to no violence or threat, there has also been no evidence of actual “injury” (disease transmission, pregnancy” Possible inconvenience, discomfiture or unpleasantness really should not be permitted to count as “injury”. Attempting to draw a line between ‘seduction’ and ‘coersion’ awaits the next Solomon.
Maybe I just woke up on the right side of the bed this morning.
May sanity prevail.
I came across a pic of SW with her boyfriend, Seth while I was doing a Google image search for A. Ardin. After taking a good look at Seth, I can see why Sofia had a thing for Julian. Call me catty, I won’t mind.
@ Sidd
Parsimony is the use of the simplest or most frugal route of explanation available. The word derives from Middle English parcimony, from Latin parsimonia, from parsus, past participle of parcere: to spare. It is a general principle that has applications from science to philosophy and all related fields.
= Honey Pot (second rate at best.)
Check it out: looks like Assange is emerging from the woodwork to return to public sphere to talk about the work of Wikileaks.
Here’s notice of an upcoming panel discussion, with Jonathan Dimbleby and David Aaronovitch from the Times, September 30, 7pm London time:
http://mountainrunner.us/2010/09/the_importance_of_understandin.html
The notice doesn’t indicate whether Assange will be there or if it will be done via videolink so he can remain in Sweden:
http://www.city.ac.uk/whatson/2010/9-sep/30092010-wikileaks-e.html
Perhaps this indicates an effort to finally move beyond the absurdities of the rape case.
If anyone in London attends, please arrange to post a report here, especially if it is not made available on the web as a video, thanks.
Also, I would guess that this appearance will be part of a larger strategy of PR in advance of the next big leak that has been promised for some time now. Perhaps that will happen soon.
ashasekh, just a quick alert: Thank you for the second link, which appears genuine and would be a truly interesting discussion, whether JA is there in person or only by videolink.
I would caution everyone, though, about “mountainrunner,” Matt Armstrong, who is a “sometime” consultant to U.S. government (State). If you follow through his links, you’ll see he’s advertising a different conference, in the U.S. This paragraph, eg, looks to me like a very dishonest attempt to piggyback on the City University panel — he doesn’t actually lie, but he segues so as to confuse people about what is happening where:
He says he’s invited JA to his conference. My guess about when that will happen: when hell freezes over.
woah, thanks, skdadl, for the clarification. i admit i didn’t read very closely the blog post at that website. i’m sneaking a bit of online time when i should be writing.
admin, feel free to delete the first link, thanks.
Not to worry, ashasekh — I think it would be interesting for people here to see Armstrong’s stuff, which I only encountered this week because he and Rick (rixstep) were having at it on Twitter — that’s the background as I know it.
And I wouldn’t have known about the City U panel otherwise, so I am very grateful to you. I think that London has so far been very good to JA, although we’re never really sure of any of our regimes these days, are we.
I would like to give the audience another little insight into the workings of the Swedish judicial system. I think I may have mentioned this before, but today it got renewed actuality. It may be a little close to off topic, but I think it is relevant as background information and because of some of the people involved.
A man previously known as Thomas Quick (now Sture Bergwall, his name at birth) was sentenced for a total of 8 murders at six separate trials. He had admitted to more than 30 murders. It is my opinion that he is innocent to all of them and that the evidence was fabricated. Some evidence has been proven to be pieces of wood and glue, not bone fragments as they were claimed to be when used as evidence.
He has been acquitted from one already, the court reopened that case and prosecutor Eva Finné found that the evidence were not enough for a trial. Today it became known that the second case will be reopened, and I think he will go free again, and again…
It is a bad sign that Eva Finné was overruled in the JA case, after Borgström appealed. Finné seems OK.
The prosecutor in all those cases with Quick was Christer van der Kwast, and the attorney defending Quick was…. drumroll… Claes Borgström. Both built careers out of these cases and it has been found, once the cases received extended public attention, that the evidence was very thin and in some cases Quick has been “helped” to “remember” things by the same kind of fake psychologists who have “helped” so many children “remember” being molested and raped by their fathers and others, putting dozens of men behind bars for crimes they did not commit. How do we know that? Because they have also been retried later. Some of the witnesses have changed their mind later when they realize how wrong it was to make those false accusations. V d Kwast and Borgström made an effective team in fixing the conviction statistics for murder in Sweden.
And that is where it all connects to some famous femijihadists in Sweden as well. You cannot believe the stories they have made up! They have imagined sex sects where men have kidnapped babies and raped them before eating them. Strangely, no babies have been reported missing, and when asked, they just make up some story that they must have been imported from far away or something like that. There is a particular group of extreme feminists who make up these stories. One of them is prof. Eva Lundgren at the University of Uppsala. Remember where AA went to school? Yep, she was deeply involved in gender issues at that university.
When you look through these cases of flawed justice, you find that the same people seem to show up all the time, including the former minister of justice, Thomas Bodström, Borgströms partner in the law firm. That is why I was never surprised that Borgström became “målsägandebiträde” for AA.
There is a group of people who have made careers out of lying in court and faking “research” in Sweden, and what careers they have made! They are at the top in the legal system, the political establishment, and even in the government. This group is not small, and it is very powerful. They have radical feminism and christian religion in common. You can call them what you want, but I persist in calling them feminazis, because they strike the same kind of fear into me. We will see what you think if Julian gets convicted.
There has been some pretty weird sorts of “justice” in Sweden…
If this news item is correct, things are not looking good for Wikileaks: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,719561,00.html
Although the allegations in Sweden against Assange are not mentioned, the fact that this man or this publication has decided to go public with this item at this time is, to say the least, unfortunate.
I don’t know enough about Daniel Domscheit-Berg to know why he would choose this time to jump ship, or why he felt the need to go public with it. It’s all most disheartening.
When I found this item, it had been posted for only an hour, at about 7pm Australian time, that is. Possibly because of this time lag, there has, as yet, been no huge follow-up by the mainstream media and those who devoutly wish the demise of Wikileaks and all its works. There will be.
Here is a reaction of Wikileaks on Twitter:
“Spiegel report Schmitt resigned which is misleading. Schmitt was suspended a month ago.”
If so, then again they failed to inform the public. You cannot present someone as an important spokesperson and then just take him out of the game in silence.
Thanks for making it known Sidd, nipping this joker in the bud sure can’t hurt.
admin,
Thanks for deleting the comments. I had to rebuttal, because labels without evidence stick as stigma. I am a conservative and do not like to be attacked that way just because I spoke on human psyche trying to resolve issues.
I am not sure if you have watched the show called “medium,” who can see events actually taking place? I have a gift and I see it now and then. I don’t make my case fully based on this, because we still need evidence.
By the way, Schmitt’s removal is not shocking to me. I had felt that after JA’s accusations, Schmitt was somehow involved and I did mention in my above comments somewhere that JA has been betrayed by Wikileak insiders.
I always liked Schmitt’s approach and his support for JA in the past. I am sorry to hear that it has not worked out the way Schmitt and others wanted. Perhaps, Schmitt and others were disappointed by not exposing the dirty linen of some of the political figures in Sweden and elsewhere prior to the election. I can understand how frustrating that can be. I hope JA can be little bit flexible and not be too narcissistic. We should not lose people like Schmitt. I hope Schmitt has not done anything too damaging to have caused such a drastic measure in booting him out or his forced resignation as result of some hidden frustration.
Two great minds can work marvelously if they have similar unselfish goals. I guess it is the conflict of personalities that can create havoc. I hope if Schmitt leaves, he can open his own version of Wikileak where he is comfortable to expose the mini creatures rather than JA’s giants that he is mainly focusing on worldwide. Lots of laugh!
Here’s an article that appeared in *The Age* newspaper in Melbourne; it’s the paper owned by Fairfax, not Murdoch, these two being the main players in Australia’s mainstream media. Gotta love a country with a media monopoly, in which Murdoch is one of the main players … at least he’s not an Australian any more. But I still feel sorry for my country producing him.
*The Age* was one of the first papers to grab the rape story, with the beautiful headline: ‘Assange not charged with rape’. A work of art, do you not agree? Think of the possibilities: ‘Jacob Applebaum not charged with child pornography’; ‘Obama not charged with bigamy’. What fun you can have when facts don’t count.
Anyway, this article, by Guy Rundle, who is also a contributer to *Crikey* (which is independently owned), goes some way to redress *The Age’s* sheeplike response to this case to date, merely docilely following along with what every other mainstream media outlet was putting about concerning the accusations against Assange.
I’m not sure exactly how accurate it is, but it seems to get the gist of what’s been written on this blog, for example. Maybe he reads it. I did post the link on *Crikey*, admin, but Rundle doesn’t give any sources for his info. Swedish contributors to this thread can probably tell us if his facts are correct.
*blush* And that link would be here: http://www.theage.com.au/national/the-man-who-played-with-fire-20100925-15rof.html?from=age_sb
Sorry. When I get fulminating about the state of the msm in Oz, I kind of get sidetracked from whatever I’m supposed to be talking about.
Sunday arvo. Bored. Went link-hopping and found these. Probably old news to some here, but new to me, and they’re coming right up when you type in ‘Julian Assange news’, so I’m assuming they’re going to be read by many more people than did originally. Which is a good thing. The one that comes up about Domscheit-Berg’s ‘resignation’ leads to another one about Microsoft and its deeds.
http://www.zdnet.co.uk/blogs/mixed-signals-10000051/wikileaks-spokesman-quits-blames-assange-10018726/They're here:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread546635/pg1
Yes, conspiracy theories. But no, I have no trouble believing in the power of Microsoft to do these things, nor in their ability or desire to do so. As some have commented in that second thread, people should not be surprised to know what information is kept on us all by companies like MS, Yahoo, Google, et al. I’m not. But it’s still interesting to see it all laid out like that.
As predicted, the msm have already started joyfully to hop on this latest and put their own spin on it. *Gawker*, for example. I won’t post that link – it’s all totally business-as-usual for that particular site.
@ whatistheword. The article in the Age is largely accurate, except for this part, I think> “The milieu of hackerdom is not without its conspiracy enthusiasts, who pointed to her stint in the Washington DC branch of the Swedish foreign service, that she had been deported from Cuba for working with the US-backed dissident group The Women in White, and that her close cousin Mattias Ardin is a lieutenant-colonel in Afghanistan.” The report that is based on was about a number of different people doing internships at Swedish embassies. If I remember correctly Ardin was is Brazil, not in DC or Cuba, that was other people. That would make sense in a way because the ambassador in Brazil back then, I think, was Margareta Winberg, known femijihadist.
Not that it matters. The people who made those connections made them in error and the only thing you could blame Rundle for is missing that fact. The connections were made nonetheless.
All in all, I think it was a good article, with some facts and ideas I had missed before.
The article in the Age is largely accurate only if comments in here are largely accurate. It’s very obvious that the journalist used this blog + comments to make a story. Including every mistake and false claim. Not much fact checking there. Swedish SEPO hehe hehe…
@ Ulla. SEPO?
@ Ulla, oh yeah, now I saw it. He must have talked to someone from Stockholm speaking dialect
As far as I remember, nobody has made that mistake here (or?), so it must be from somewhere else. So some other sources must have been used.
For non-Swedes, the correct abbreviation would be SÄPO, short for Säkerhetspolisen, which is not quite correct either. The official name is Rikspolisstyrelsens Säkerhetsavdelning and it is abbreviated RPS-SÄK. The name SÄPO is mainly used by the public and journalsists.
The notion that there would be any intelligence to be shared with them is doubtful…
While waiting for the interview with Daniel Schmitt on Spiegel Online, it seems the Süddeutsche Zeitung has more informations right now.
Here are some statements, which were not published like that (yet) by Der Spiegel:
http://newsticker.sueddeutsche.de/list/id/1044384
«Vor vier Wochen hat er (Assange) mich suspendiert – als Ankläger, Richter und Henker in einer Person», sagte Schmitt. Seither habe er auch keinen Zugriff mehr auf seine E-Mails. «WikiLeaks hat ein strukturelles Problem. Für mich ist das nicht länger zu verantworten, deshalb verlasse ich das Projekt.»
—
„Four weeks ago he (Assange) suspended me – as prosecutor, judge and executioner in one person”, said Schmitt. Since then he also has no access to his e-mails. “Wikileaks has a structural problem. For me this is no longer accountable, that’s why I leave the project.”
———–
Einen Spalt zwischen Schmitt und Assange trieb der Vergewaltigungsverdacht, dem sich der 39 Jahre alte Australier ausgesetzt sieht. Assange wird vorgeworfen, in Schweden eine Frau vergewaltigt und eine andere sexuell belästigt zu haben. Der Beschuldigte wies die Vorwürfe als Verschwörung von Geheimdiensten nach dem Afghanistan-Coup zurück. Schmitt legte hingegen dem WikiLeaks-Gründer nahe, sich wegen der Affäre zeitweise aus der Öffentlichkeit zurückzuziehen.
Der WikiLeaks-Sprecher wollte nicht an die Verschwörungstheorien von Assange glauben: «Die Ermittlungen gegen Julian in Schweden sind aus meiner Sicht ein persönlicher Angriff auf ihn, aber sie haben nichts mit WikiLeaks zu tun», sagte Schmitt nun dem «Spiegel». «Es hätte nichts dagegen gesprochen, wenn er im Hintergrund normal weitergearbeitet hätte. Er hat meinen internen Vorschlag aber offenbar als Angriff auf seine Rolle gesehen.»
—
A split has been driven between Schmitt and Assange due to the suspicion of rape, the 39 year old Australian is confronted with. Assange is accused to have raped a woman in Sweden and molested another one sexually. The accused declined the accusation as a conspiracy of secret services as a result of the Afghansitan-coup. Schmitt however suggested to the Wikileaks founder to retreat from the public temporarely because of this affair.
The Wikileaks spokesman did not want to believe in Assange’s conspiracy theories: “The investigations against Julian in Sweden are a personal attack from my point of view, but they don’t have anything to do with Wikileaks”, said Schmitt now to the “Spiegel”. “There would have nothing to be said against it, if he had continued his work in the background as usual. But he interpreted my internal proposal obviously as an attack on his role.”
I just saw, that Spiegel Online changed the text from “Check back on Sunday” into “Check back on Monday”.
@ Sidd. It looks like Schmitt is accusing Assange of being undemocratic and rather autocratic, a dictator.
Without knowing WikiLeaks’ inner workings, I still make my own personal reflections. If I were JA I would certainly not try to crate a democratic organization, because I don’t believe WL needs to be, should be, or even can be democratic. Not with the kind of enemies they are making. They need to be organized like a classic resistance movement, in cells with very little horizontal communication. It must be top down with very few people having complete overview. The risk of infiltration and treason should be pretty high, given the opposition. Everybody has a price and idealism could easily give way for greed. Or fear. Or maybe just pride in Schmitts case.
Will anybody leak Schmitts bank account?
The mistake about SEPO was made here by admin and he took it from another journalist. None of those journalists had bothered to check this important piece of fact, because they trust each other and believe what others like them write. Hence no fact checking.
@Celsius: It’s on the way already. Heise.de just published a satirical review, that opens the way for this approach:
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Was-war-Was-wird-1096345.html
Mit scharfer Zunge hat sich der deutsche Wikileaks-Sprecher Daniel Schmitt von der Mitarbeit im Verein der Freunde der Wahrheit verabschiedet. Seine Kritik, dass sich Wikileaks zuwenig um kleine, nationale Projekte mit befreiten Dokumenten kümmere, wurde nicht akzeptiert, die Kritik selbst schon als Illoyalität angesehen. Einem Häuptling wie Assange verweigert man nicht den Gehorsam, howgh! Nun hatte sich der Bruch in dem Moment abgezeichnet, als Daniel Schmitt die Art und Weise kritisierte, wie Wikileaks selbst mit Kritik umging: Alles Idioten da draußen, im Zweifelsfall auch gerne antikubanische Elemente genannt, wenn Reporter ohne Grenzen Wikileaks kritisierte, wie zuvor die kubanische Regierung für ihre Zensurpraxis kritisiert wurde. Pressefreiheit passt nicht jedem, schon gar nicht dem Helden, dem guten Diktator Julian Assange.
—
With a sharp tongue the German Wikileaks-spokesman Daniel Schmitt has taken leave of the association of the friends of the truth. His critique, that Wikileaks does not care enough for little national projects with released (lit.: “freed”) documents, was not accepted, the critique itself seen as illoyality. One does not refuse obedience to a chieftain like Assange, howgh! Now the breach began to appear right in the moment, when Daniel Schmitt critizised the way how Wikileaks itself does react to critique: All idiots out there, in the case of doubt also called anti-Cuban elements, when Reporters Without Frontiers critizised Wikileaks, as the Cuban gouvernment was critizised for their practise of censorship before. Freedom of the press does not suit everybody, least of all the hero, the benevolent dictator Julian Assange.
————————————————–
Again I only can wonder how everything and everybody is playing into the hands of the Pentagon.
The above association is obvious: Assange is like Fidel Castro and Wikileaks is like Cuba.
Who is Batista in this scenario?
Wikileaks twittered two minutes ago:
“Successfully completed our next three films. Thank you team and supporters.”
At a most basic level, WikiLeaks is a publisher, and publishers aren’t democratic (I speak from forty years’ plus experience), nor should they be. It’s true in any publishing company: if you don’t like the ed-in-c’s vision, then sooner or later, one way or another, you’ll be gone.
And then, as Celsius says, WL has more to worry about from a security pov than ordinary publishers do. There’s nothing suspect about that — they aren’t a government; they’re a private organization. They don’t have to be any more transparent or publicly accountable than, say, Random House does.
It’s governments that have to become — or be made — transparent and publicly accountable.
Here’s the full Spiegel interview:
http://cryptome.org/0002/schmitt-spiegel.htm
Keep your friends close and your enemies closer and never tell anyone outside the family what you are thinking.. WTG !
JA’s got it down I’m sure..
Hi everybody, I’ve been reading this discussion for a while now and found some interesting info and links here, thanks.
Some questions that came up recently made me curious, though, and I thought I should share some links I found:
Using the acronym SePo for the “Security Police” in Sweden is not a “mistake”, but quite common for English native speakers, see eg:
http://www.shmoo.com/mail/cypherpunks/feb99/msg00306.html
http://forum.pakistanidefence.com/lofiversion/index.php/t7326.html
http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?menu=c10400&no=383619&rel_no=1
http://bookreview.mostlyfiction.com/2010/between-summers-longing-and-winters-end-by-leif-gw-persson/
As to Ms Ardin’s problems in Cuba, see what she says on her own blog:
http://annaardin.wordpress.com/thesis/
@ashasekh, Thanks for the links. Dimbleby and Aaronovitch are 2 very well known “liberals” in the UK. It’s interesting that the debate on WikiLeaks is framed as “a victory for free expression or an act putting lives in danger”. If the illegal invasion of Afghanistan and war in Iraq haven’t put lives in danger, then I don’t know what has. I bet Daniel Elsberg never had to face such questions after he leaked the Pentagon papers. Just shows how twisted freedom of expression has become in the 21st Century. Still, will be interesting to see Assange give them a pounding. I suspect it will be via video link but can’t be sure. I won’t delete the other link – the way to deal with those who try to smear WikiLeaks is to expose their lies and background to sunlight – which is exactly what skdadl did (thanks).
@whatistheword Thanks for The Age link. A very good summary of the story so far I think. I don’t think the author necessarily relied on any of the comments here – while some of them first emerged here in English, eg. “7 Steps to Legal Revenge” most of it has been widely reported by now.
@CelsiusThanks for clarifying although I think Ardin was based in Argentina not Brazil because I remember someone posting a her “internship report” very early on this thread where it was detailed that she threatened to take legal action against an Argentinian guy for harassment. I think any of those conspiracy theories suggesting she was a CIA operative for years were some of the wildest said about her. Do those people really think she would compromise herself with blog posts such as “7 Steps to legal revenge” if she was on their payroll. Unless of course you’re a “Lee Harvey Oswald” conspiracy theorist and think that she was somehow brainwashed by the CIA into setting herself up as a patsy. Let’s not even go there.
@Sidd Reader, Thanks for the news and updates about Schmidt. I’m not sure I agree with those that suggest WikiLeaks should not be democratic. The picture painted is one of Assange as a “dictator” (he did found WikiLeaks so he would be entitled to act that way after all) but I would imagine that there must have been some consultation with other WikiLeaks volunteers before the decision was taken. WikiLeaks have tweeted that he was “suspended a month ago” which is shortly after the allegations broke. I find it hard to believe Assange would instantly “fire” someone for merely suggesting maybe he should step down for a while until the case was cleared up. Maybe there were reasons to suspect that he had “turned” against the organization in which case, I can understand someone being dismissed very quickly in light of WikiLeaks sensitive political situation.
@reorg, Welcome to the discussion and thank you for clarifying SEPO (and thanks to you too Celsius). Ulla, I guess a lot of people out there then are incapable of “fact checking” when they use SEPO instead of SÄPO then
Note reorg that the fact that Ardin did a thesis on Cuba but I don’t think she was actually there as mentioned earlier. I think it was Argentina.
@admin: Since most readers won’t have the time to check out the link, I’ll quote the relevant excerpts of what Ms Ardin writes about her trip to Cuba:
“In June 2006 I traveled to Cuba with the intention of staying for at least two months interviewing leaders, members and supporters of various Cuban political parties. …
One night a young man from the interior ministry came to the house where I rented my room. He told me that I had to stay home the next day because someone would come and ask me a few questions. At eight-thirty the following morning two uniformed men in a police Lada came to take me in for interrogation. They took me to Control de Extranjeros (foreigner control) and put me in a hot waiting room. Finally, after many hours, three anonymous men in civilian clothing questioned me: With whom had I spoken? Why? What did I ask them? How did I get their contacts? What had I been doing the other times I had visited Cuba? Who paid for my trip? … They also told me that with a tourist visa I was supposed to do “touristy things”, and their suggestions were: going to the beach, dancing salsa, going to the pool and visiting museums. If I did something else they would kick me out of the country. …
It had become too difficult to continue, and I did not want to put my informants at risk, so I decided to leave Cuba. Instead I went to Miami in December 2006 and continued interviewing Cubans there. Due to this forced shift of material and focus, the thesis has not turned out quite as expected, but given the limits of the material I am satisfied with the result.”
Reorg, thanks for that link and for straightening out Ulla’s misperceptions about that *Age* article.
As for you, Ulla, do you *ever* stop to think things through before you hit the keyboard? I’m kind of allergic to received ideas and generalisations and you seem to specialise in them. That bit about journalists all blindly copying each other’s work without question because they trust each other is total and utter bullshit. I am a journalist, so I actually know what I’m talking about, unlike you. (Also unlike anyone who actually pays the slightest bit of attention to the workings of the media, which is almost everyone – except you … )
It’s been quite obvious for some time that you are hostile about almost all of the comments here and towards most of the commentators, so I wonder why you keep coming back. Surely there are other blogs where you’d fit in more happily.
If you’ve got nothing of any value to add here, why comment at all?
admin, I read the thesis at the link reorg provided. It’s definitely the same Anna Ardin and she was definitely in Cuba until she was kicked out. Have a look.
@whatisthword and reorg, Apologies. Like re-org said, I am one of those that don’t have time to read the entire Thesis and it clearly states that AA did spend time in Cuba. Thanks for clarifying reorg. I was confusing it with this post earlier on in the thread. She would be ideal recruitment material for the CIA given that background especially if she spent time in Miami amongst the anti-Castro community. Or at least, maybe she knew who to turn within the intelligence community when she hatched a plan to frame Assange with rape….
And on that conspiratorial comment, I give you the 1,000th comment on this blog post
Probably quite appropriate actually since its title is “How to smear a hero” after all.
Anti-Castro Cubans in Miami are a definite alarm signal, but then as others have noted above, SW’s appearance out of nowhere is kind of provocative too. Gosh: I hope we find out the truth one day.
Nepotism, compromise, seduction, contacts, obligations, funding & ambition is what gets any relatively young woman out of Sweden and into action she’s seen and cited in her CV. No matter how